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Old 12-05-2009, 03:06 PM   #1
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Bonds

I keep hearing people preaching on & on about how this whole manga is about nothing but bonds. As if the manga itself isn't about anything else other then friendship & love. If this were the case the manga itself wouldn't be an action manga it would be a romance manga that is only about friendship, love, hate, & betrayual all in the name of explaining different types of bonds people share. All stories involving multiple character's show forms of bonds this is a common practice in story telling. So why is it these bonds can't be broken in such a story as Naruto? I thought this was a manga about an orphan child wanting to be acknowledged by the people of his village & become the greatest ninja ever known. Yes bonds do develop over time as the character grows & meets new people but the entire manga doesn't revolve souly on bonds.

In November of 1999 the manga series known as Naruto was released still continues till this day making it a 10 year old story from the original release date of the series. The general age group of Shōnen can range from 9-14(being general). The loyal fans of Naruto who stood by since chapter 1 & still continue to read this manga to this day would be around the ages of 19-24(again generalizing). These loyal fans which allowed the manga to stay alive for so long have no doubt matured as individuals & as such Naruto would also have to mature so the loyal fan could continue to relate to the main character.

Through out life you create bonds with new people while losing bonds with others. People you once considered close friends can one day become your worst enemy while childhood crushes can become the person you love. There are also the life long bonds that can never be broken because of the experiences shared within life. The loyal fan who's read since chapter 1 no doubt has experienced these bonds.

In terms of father figure bonds Naruto has Iruka & Jiraiya. In regards to life long friendship bonds (commonly refereed to as close friends or best friends) Naruto has people like Shikamaru, Chouji, & Kiba(just to name a few). The mentor & or idol bonds for Naruto can be seen in Kakashi, Jiraiya, & Yamato. While the childhood crush turned love interest is shown with Sakura.

Where does Sasuke fit into all of this? Sasuke is the brother in arms(a bond shared by most of the rookies) turned enemy. In reality these bonds a rarely repaired as a common fact of life is that one of your closest friends can one day become one of your worst enemies.

Now on to the main point. People say Naruto will save Sasuke because this manga is about bonds & Naruto never goes back on his word. They say it'll ruin the manga if Naruto can't save Sasuke. In life you can't always get what you want & your word will sometimes be broken due to a situation that is beyond your control. The situation with Sasuke is a clear representation of this common truth which is what I believe Kishi is trying to express to the reader. What would one define as saving Sasuke anway?


Opinions of the common fan in regards to saving Sasuke
1. Sasuke returns to Konoha as a shinobi because Naruto used the power of love & rainbows.
This is one of the most retarded theories out there at this point in regards to Naruto & Sasuke based on Sasuke's actions. Regardless of being manipulated it is ridiculous to even consider the possibility that Konoha would simply accept Sasuke back as a shinobi at this point. At best Konoha would have Sasuke thrown in prison & executed after Naruto drags Sasuke back to the village. It would make this manga have one of the all time worst endings ever created if Sasuke is allowed to play ninja with Konoha shinobi again.

2. Naruto gets through to Sasuke & Sasuke gives his life for the greater good & in an essence redeems himself for his past mistakes.
This is an acceptable outcome at this point & still a possibility however would you still really consider this saving Sasuke? That is up to the opinion of the viewer however what is clear with this one is Naruto still brakes his promise as he wasn't able to bring Sasuke back.

3. Naruto gets through to Sasuke & he helps Naruto with the final battle. However in this situation Sasuke would not return to Konoha. He'd live his life in solitude helping others when he can while also repopulating the Uchiha.
Again acceptable but Naruto still brakes his promise.

Opinion of the Anti save Sasuke fans
Naruto grows up & realizes that in order to save Sasuke he has to kill him. Sasuke is killed without being redeemed.
This would be the best direction for Kishi to go in my opinion. It shows the readers that in life things don't always workout the way you want them to. It shows that in life not all bonds can be saved nor are they worth saving. It shows Naruto maturing to a point that would allow him to lead a village because he's able to put aside his feelings for the sake of others.


Conclusion
Kishi has to show maturity within Naruto so Naruto can continue to relate to the original fans. Naruto making a decision to stop his lost friend would show how far Naruto has come. Naruto needs to learn that life isn't always fair. Naruto needs to learn that you can't always get what you want as there are situations beyond one's own control. Naruto will have to brake the promise of bringing Sasuke back to show maturity as well as teach a valuable life lesson. The alternative's for Naruto keeping his word are Naruto brings Sasuke back in a body bag, Sasuke is brought back for execution, or Sasuke is brought back & thrown in prison. Yes this manga does show bonds however that doesn't mean those bonds can't be severed beyond recognition.

PS
1. I'm a Sasuke fan before any morons want to call me a hater. Go fuck yourself if you feel the need to say it anyway.

2. This is not a couples thread. Hinatards don't start your shit just because I mentioned Sakura as a love interest. Stay on topic & don't turn this into a couples war thread.
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Old 12-05-2009, 03:54 PM   #2
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Re: Bonds

Fuck you you sasuke cock wrangler. LMFAOOOOOOOO that's a joke son, but seriously.

I like this thread, thumbs up!

EDIT: I guess I should explain why. I agree that Naruto needs to learn that some bonds need to be broken, he's been restlessly chasing after Sasuke, trying to become stronger by any means necessary, I mean his obsession with Sasuke is almost like Vegeta's with Goku's. ALMOST, lol. It just pains me to see a decent character fawning over another like come on Naruto, grow a pair, Sai has them lmao
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Old 12-05-2009, 04:05 PM   #3
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Re: Bonds

I'm all for the killing sasuke part because he has to realize he can't save him. Before people say "you're just anti-sasuke", I gotta tell you yes I am I'm most cases. The reason I believe its the best option is because, Sasuke went down a path that cannot be forgiven...

He has attacked a village to try and take away their Jinchuriki, but also a comrade of that village. He really had no reason to do this. His goal was to take out the leaf village(another bad thing which I will later mention), nothing else should have been done by him.

Madara ordered him but Sasuke could have very well turned it down. He also did not have to join with Akatsuki, since that too serves no purpose for the goal he set for himself. Why would Sasuke even want to destroy the leaf village? What does a few people trying to SAVE the entire village from an evil clan have to do with killing out the entire village and all the innocent people for revenge?

He heard a story which may have not been true and acted upon emotion, emotion that didn't even make sense..

"My clan was evil and wanted to take over, so they got offed by the most talented in the clan", "I have to now destroy the village for what they did to my clan". But what did they do? They saved their village and the people from a clan that wanted to take over and would start another civil war...

There is no back way for sasuke, there's no saving him. The moment he said "I have to now destroy the village for what they did to my clan" showed his real self Madara was right, sasuke chose this road himself, he could have chose to not believe madara or at least make sure his story was real but he didn't do either.

The only "good" thing he can do is help naruto in some way to redeem himself partially before he dies. I doubt Naruto will kill him though, I believe he dies fighting Madara trying to rescue Naruto or some shit from some set up plan used to trick naruto and capture him.. I believe sasuke will play a big role in the plan (perhaps something that Vengeance wrote up as a fan fic), and to redeem himself he will fight Madara and die in which Naruto and the others will forgive him and Naruto will fight Madara to finally end his existence and close the chapter on him for good.

Of course he can also kill sasuke then kill madara for making sasuke that way, even though madara didn't really make sasuke do anything.
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Old 12-05-2009, 04:31 PM   #4
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Re: Bonds

my post in naruto's next teacher seems to belong here:

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Originally Posted by poolangya View Post
Sasuke will be Naruto's next teacher. Sasuke will teach him the harsh realities of life:
-you can't get everything you want
-sometimes the best decisions are the most painful ones
-you have only 2 hands, to catch something while your 2 hands are full means you have to let go of something you are currently holding.
-happy endings does not always involve rainbows and unicorns.
-peace can only be found under a genjutsu.
sasuke would teach that to naruto. he has to learn first hand. Jiraiya was the first one to try tell Naruto to give up on Sasuke. Sakura just recently told him the same things, punctuated by Sai's revelation of the unanimous decision of his batchmates in Konoha. Gaara, whom has a blood debt to Naruto, also told him the harsh realities of life, and to kill Sasuke is part of that. Sasuke will be the last to tell Naruto that it is really hopeless to try and save him. but i still have the gut feeling that somehow naruto would be able to let sasuke see the light at the end of the tunnel.but of course they can never start over again.
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Old 12-05-2009, 04:43 PM   #5
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Re: Bonds

in reality yeah, naruto should kill sasuke coz hes gone too far, but its a manga and from the end of series 1 all they have been working on is brining sasuke back.

if sasuke were to die then it would :

shit on itachis legacy and sacriface
shit on narutos never give up strategy
shit on the whole bonds thing

the whole bonds thing isnt to do with sexual relationships, its more to do with bonds between family (or lack of one) and friends

kishi has shown how everyone even sakura has given up on sasuke now, what a good way to hype up the main character by having him keeping his word and changing sasuke somehow despite all other opinions


clearly one of the reasons that will change everyones mind about sasuke is partly to do with manipulation from madaras part, partly because hopefully he will turn against madara and help in the war

but mostly coz of what danzo and konoha did and the "truth" about why hes on this rampage

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Old 12-05-2009, 04:58 PM   #6
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Re: Bonds

^Itachi knows you can't have both ways which is why I say what he left Naruto was a kill move if all fails to bring sasuke back the power will activate..

Itachi told naurto that sometimes there comes a time where you must make a choice because you won't be able to have it both ways.. he made the choice also when he chose to kill his clan in order to save the village from them. even though he and the third both tried to save both in the end as madara said it would not happen..
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Old 12-05-2009, 05:01 PM   #7
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Re: Bonds

first off, thanks vengeance, very good post

my opinion concerning the matter is, that sasuke should be killed by naruto.
the manga more and more went all the way to that scenario. sasuke mentioned himself that he walks down a part of darkness so being unwilling to "go back".

it is my wish though, but honestly i don't believe kishi will do it. i'd like naruto to be "harder" concerning these matters.

but, i think gaara's words in the last chapter are rousing naruto up and he has to do some thinking to do, seeing that even sakura has given up on him.

and what is most frustating for me, that sakura and the gang might get their asses saved by naruto again...arg

cheers
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Old 12-05-2009, 05:19 PM   #8
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Re: Bonds

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Originally Posted by freedom07 View Post
in reality yeah, naruto should kill sasuke coz hes gone too far, but its a manga and from the end of series 1 all they have been working on is brining sasuke back.
Yeah but it doesn't mean it's actually going to happen. Just because they wanted to bring Sasuke back based on the actions he has taken it would be impossible for the people of Konoha to accept him as a comrade in arms. What happens if Sasuke kills someone from Konoha? What happens if Sasuke kills multiple people from Konoha? You'll still be preaching o but Naruto must save him because he's been trying for so long. I call bullshit on your logic.

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if sasuke were to die then it would :

shit on itachis legacy and sacriface
It's Itachi's own fault for making Sasuke that way. Sasuke already shit on Itachi's legacy from the moment he decided Konoha was his enemy.


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shit on narutos never give up strategy
shit on the whole bonds thing
Like I said Naruto needs to realize you can't fix everything in the world. His mentality is that of a naive child in regards to bringing back someone he really wasn't that close with for a long time. The time they were apart far outways the time they were actually in team 7. You want to compare a bond of a few months to over 3 years of separation? What Naruto is is obsessed & is in stalker mode worse than how Hinata stalks Naruto. As for the bonds thing? Read my fucking post because it doesn't actually shit on that accept. Bonds are formed & end this is a fact of life your closest friend can become one of your worst enemies. How is Naruto giving up on bringing Sasuke back shitting on the concept of bonds? Answer is it isn't it's just showing bonds from a different point of view.

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the whole bonds thing isnt to do with sexual relationships, its more to do with bonds between family (or lack of one) and friends
What are you fucking stupid or did you not even read my post? Where did I mention sexual bonds between Naruto & Sasuke? You're a fucking tron who fails at life.

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kishi has shown how everyone even sakura has given up on sasuke now, what a good way to hype up the main character by having him keeping his word and changing sasuke somehow despite all other opinions
It would be better to show maturity in Naruto which is something he's been lacking since the beginning of the manga.

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Originally Posted by freedom07 View Post
clearly one of the reasons that will change everyones mind about sasuke is partly to do with manipulation from madaras part, partly because hopefully he will turn against madara and help in the war

but mostly coz of what danzo and konoha did and the "truth" about why hes on this rampage
Wow dude really the manipulation of Madara? Do you even read the manga? Madara tolled Sasuke the truth knowing full well that it would make Madara himself one of Sasuke's targets. As stated by Sasuke himself he wants to kill everyone involved which includes Madara. Madara himself has stated that he took a huge risk in telling Sasuke the truth. Yet you see it as manipulation as if Sasuke isn't aware of the fact that Madara was a part of committing the deed. Yeah ok everyone's going to be like awww Sasuke learned that Danzou & the elders had a hand in the massacre(which they did this was confirmed last chapter) so let's let Sasuke kill Danzou & our elders & al play ninja together. Stop smoking crack regardless of how Sasuke found out the fact is he found out. Sasuke was willing to kill his own brother what makes you think he'll give a shit about the lives of Danzou, the elders, & anyone else in Konoha? Answer is he won't!
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1) There may well be some literary or map correlation between the Uzumaki and Ireland.
Check out this awesome manga called Magi.

Wanna join me come and play, but I mite shoot you in your face. Bombs and bullets will do the trick. What we need here is a little bit of panic! ~ Get Jinxed
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Old 12-05-2009, 05:39 PM   #9
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Re: Bonds

I doubt that it's good to make assumptions about Naruto (not) saving Sasuke based on nothing but the bonds between them (or between Naruto and other people). There's at least one major point that will play into this decision:

Breaking the cycle of hatred.
It's been shown throughout the whole series that the Naruto world isn't a peaceful place where a few groups of ninjas have nothing better to do than fight each other. In fact, the shinobi are the military forces of the nations (although there are exceptions) and these nations aren't that friendly with each other. The situations may have been worse earlier, but the recent kage summit has shown that a shinobi alliance is a big achievement, mainly forced by a common enemy capable of starting a ninja world war.
Starting with the story of the Rikudou Sennin the world has moved from one giant battlefield to a world where real peace may be possible.
Althlough the politcal situation seems to improve, there are two, no three, known events that repeat themselves with Sasukes actual situation:

1. The Legendary Sanin conflict:
Because his parents died when he was young, Orochimaru became obsessed with immortality, eventually had to leave the village which lead to the disbanding of this three man team. Jirayas attempts to persuade Orochimaru remained fruitless till the very end.
Team 7 has a similar fate, Sasuke left Konoha to become Orochimarus student while Naruto and Sakura eventually became the students of Jiraya and Tsunade. And as of now, everybody but Naruto has given up on Sasuke.

2. The Hyuuga conflict:
Signing a peace treaty at day, trying to abduct Hinata at night. Since the culprit ended up dead, Kumogakure threatened to resume war, should Konoha deny to sell out the "murderer". Nejis father sacrificed himself instead of his twin.
Sasukes attempt to capture Killerbee failed, but the Raikage won't consider that, especially since he already made Sasuke a worldwide criminal, although being the real aggressor forcing the battle with all the Kage on Sasuke, who originally planned to ambush Danzou after the meeting. Then again, the real culprit was Madara, manipulating Sasuke into being there, before selling him out.

3. The conflict concerning the legacy of the Rikudou Senin.
While the Rikudou Senin himself tried to achieve world peace he died before he reached this goal. His sons started a long battle for his legacy, eventually leading to the Senju and Uchiha clans. This battle seemed to end when Konoha was founded, starting the one village per country trend that marked another step leading to world peace. Madara destroyed this peace by attacking Konoha, which lead to the attempted Uchiha rebellion that he "helped" to prevent in the Uchiha massacre (causing Sasukes downfall).
Naruto and Sasuke are the actual incarnations of the two brothers: Sasuke intoxicated by his power couldn't care less about the idea of world peace, while Naruto tries to save him from this path.

So Sasuke's redemption would actually (require the) break (of) all three of these circles and make world peace possible for the Naruto world.
Naruto learning leassons like that might seem logical, but he is the messiah of this story, it's his nature to never give up, instead of surrendering to the hardships he faced.
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Old 12-05-2009, 06:16 PM   #10
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Re: Bonds

i think sasuke will 'see the light' and be a big help to end the war, i do agree that he cant go to konoha anymore, but i dont think that he would wanted to anyway, but he can make his own clan\village by gathering all that wondering shinobi and clans that orochimaru take advantige of, or maybe some of the others villages could take him like kage... there is a lot of possibilities


Quote:
Conclusion
Kishi has to show maturity within Naruto so Naruto can continue to relate to the original fans. Naruto making a decision to stop his lost friend would show how far Naruto has come. Naruto needs to learn that life isn't always fair. Naruto needs to learn that you can't always get what you want as there are situations beyond one's own control. Naruto will have to brake the promise of bringing Sasuke back to show maturity as well as teach a valuable life lesson. The alternative's for Naruto keeping his word are Naruto brings Sasuke back in a body bag, Sasuke is brought back for execution, or Sasuke is brought back & thrown in prison. Yes this manga does show bonds however that doesn't mean those bonds can't be severed beyond recognition.
well, u tried to look at it logicaly but u failed

so let me enlighten you:
this manga is about naruto and about how he chose to be; your 'Conclusion' is already shown\proven with jiraiya and orochimaru, jiraiya figured that orochimaru is evil and that is what he had chosen, so he had gave up on him; but whole idea of naruto is that he will succeed where other have failed

sasuke is not beyond help, not even nagato who killed whole bunch of ppl was beyond help, so i belive that naruto will manage to 'save' sasuke from darkness and with his help end the war

Quote:
3. Naruto gets through to Sasuke & he helps Naruto with the final battle. However in this situation Sasuke would not return to Konoha. He'd live his life in solitude helping others when he can while also repopulating the Uchiha.
Again acceptable but Naruto still brakes his promise.
well if u look at it like that, then naruto already broke his promise, when he was going to save sasuke right after he left konoha, he promised to sakura to save him and bring him back but imediatly and not after 3 or 10y, but he failed

and important part of that promise is that he save sasuke and if he manage that he didnt breake his promise :P
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Old 12-05-2009, 06:33 PM   #11
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Re: Bonds

Itachi once told Naruto that he is such a child and that sometimes, time comes when a man has to make a groundbreaking decisions in life.

I liked that. It's realistic, and I thought it was a nice touch.

I completely agree with you Veng when it comes to the quality of storytelling about these kind of things. But we will both be somewhat disappointed. If you read other Shounen stories, it's always about a friendship overcoming the impossible.

I am convinced that Sasuke will be redeemed, and I kind of like that, because he originally wasn't a villain at all. But I want it to be in a convincing, and well-written way. I still want him to die though.

Sasuke coming back to Konoha is the ultimate bullshit this manga could produce.
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Old 12-05-2009, 06:42 PM   #12
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Re: Bonds

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Originally Posted by Frog_Hermit View Post
well, u tried to look at it logicaly but u failed
I failed? Ha really now how is my post a failure?

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Originally Posted by Frog_Hermit View Post
so let me enlighten you:
this manga is about naruto and about how he chose to be; your 'Conclusion' is already shown\proven with jiraiya and orochimaru, jiraiya figured that orochimaru is evil and that is what he had chosen, so he had gave up on him; but whole idea of naruto is that he will succeed where other have failed
Trying to translate this into something that actually makes since is giving me a head ach.

This manga is as I said before about an orphan child who wanted to be acknowledged & become the greatest ninja of his time. Everything else in the manga is to explain just how he get's there. The manga's main focus believe it or not isn't Naruto succeeding where others have failed but rather Naruto's journey & life lessons which ultimately lead to him becoming the greatest shinobi of his time. This is what some of you trons fail to understand.

It's only recently were Naruto became a care-bear preaching about kisses & rainbows & singing kumbaya while holding hands with your worst enemy. He became like this because of Jiraiya's death & the destruction of Konoha which like I said are more recent actions & not the main underlining theme of the manga since the beginning. That is why you fail in your attempt at a logical argument.

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Originally Posted by Frog_Hermit View Post
sasuke is not beyond help, not even nagato who killed whole bunch of ppl was beyond help, so i belive that naruto will manage to 'save' sasuke from darkness and with his help end the war
I mentioned Naruto getting through to Sasuke as an acceptable possibility however one of the main points was to show that Naruto clearly has to go back on his word. Sasuke will not be returning to Konoha as a shinobi.

Naruto also shared a bond with Nagato in that they both had the same teacher. Nagato started out as a good kid who was in a group that wanted to stop a war through peaceful action. Sasuke however has thought of nothing but revenge since he was 7. There is a huge difference between Sasuke & Nagato in this regard as while Nagato was at one time actually a kind hearted person who believed in peace Sasuke was always a jealous child (jealous of Itachi & Naruto) who wanted nothing more then to gain his revenge. Even in his own crazy way Nagato was still trying to achieve some form of piece while Sasuke only wants to destroy for the sake of revenge. Another concept you trons fail to grasp when you bring Nagato's name into this conversation.


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Originally Posted by Frog_Hermit View Post
well if u look at it like that, then naruto already broke his promise, when he was going to save sasuke right after he left konoha, he promised to sakura to save him and bring him back but imediatly and not after 3 or 10y, but he failed

and important part of that promise is that he save sasuke and if he manage that he didnt breake his promise :P
The promise was to bring Sasuke back. A promise of a life time so to speak which will never come to pass. Naruto can still get through to Sasuke like I've said before however Sasuke will not be coming back to Konoha which means Naruto couldn't actually keep his word.
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Yeah vengeance, if i could giuve rep to your o so epic post too i would, but unfortunately I have already repped your greatness already so i cannot either. Just wanted u to know im on your cock now too
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1) There may well be some literary or map correlation between the Uzumaki and Ireland.
Check out this awesome manga called Magi.

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Last edited by Vengeance; 12-05-2009 at 06:45 PM.
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Old 12-05-2009, 06:56 PM   #13
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Re: Bonds

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Originally Posted by Vengeance View Post
It's only recently were Naruto became a care-bear preaching about kisses & rainbows & singing kumbaya while holding hands with your worst enemy. He became like this because of Jiraiya's death & the destruction of Konoha which like I said are more recent actions & not the main underlining theme of the manga since the beginning. That is why you fail in your attempt at a logical argument.
I lol'd.

It's true though. This manga started as a shinobi manga. People are supposed to kill each other to earn their living (first mission of Team 7 included killing, and we know it wasn't all rainbows like it was with Pain all of the sudden).

Now Naruto wants to bring peace. The fuck will then shinobi do? Wash laundry?
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Old 12-05-2009, 07:02 PM   #14
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Re: Bonds

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Now Naruto wants to bring peace. The fuck will then shinobi do? Wash laundry?
The destined child would either save or destroy the shinobi world, but how about saving the world by destroying the shinobi system, making shinobi (the soldiers) unnecessary?
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Old 12-05-2009, 07:05 PM   #15
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Re: Bonds

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Originally Posted by Tankynator View Post
The destined child would either save or destroy the shinobi world, but how about saving the world by destroying the shinobi system, making shinobi (the soldiers) unnecessary?
I would pick the third option:

The prophecy is filler, cliche and stupid.

But yeah, when you put it that way, I guess I can cope with it. Still far better then Bleach/Faily Fail etc.
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