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Old 07-18-2011, 03:38 AM   #1171
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Re: Just a Thought THREAD

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Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
Well you must be reading something else, because Karin has shown no signs of being Uzumaki, even part. She has none of the physical trademarks, and she hasn't shown any skill in seals. She was put in charge of the Southern hideout because she is truly devoted to Orochimaru and she has the ability to detect specific peoples' chakra at extreme distances with little effort, making it impossible to escape. As for Madara, all signs have pointed towards Tobi being Madara, so I would like to know what exactly you've read that would make you believe both of those.
I like to keep it simple. I'm basing these comments purely off my interpretation of Kishi's writing. When it is said that Uzumaki have trademark red hair, I take it for what it's worth.

The Madara Edo is just a matter of reading the conversation between Kabuto and TobiDara in chapter 490 when Kabuto first says, "Relax, I haven't told a soul", and then two pages later when Kabuto says, "Uchiha Madara, you truly are in your own league", and MadaTobi replies, "Wise guy"

I took that as Tobi basically calling Kabuto a smart ass for calling him Madara, after he has just shown proof (the last casket) that he knows that is not actually Madara. IMHO
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Old 07-18-2011, 06:48 AM   #1172
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Re: Just a Thought THREAD

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Originally Posted by batonnoir View Post
I like to keep it simple. I'm basing these comments purely off my interpretation of Kishi's writing. When it is said that Uzumaki have trademark red hair, I take it for what it's worth.
That's a logical fallacy, because that's the same as saying that all redheads in real life are (descendants of people) from the British Isles and anyone with a brain knows that's bogus.

Just because red hair is a trademark of the Uzumaki, that doesn't mean that all redheads are Uzumaki (for example, Chouza is an Akimichi clansman) or that all Uzumaki are redheads (for example, Naruto).

Quote:
The Madara Edo is just a matter of reading the conversation between Kabuto and TobiDara in chapter 490 when Kabuto first says, "Relax, I haven't told a soul", and then two pages later when Kabuto says, "Uchiha Madara, you truly are in your own league", and MadaTobi replies, "Wise guy"

I took that as Tobi basically calling Kabuto a smart ass for calling him Madara, after he has just shown proof (the last casket) that he knows that is not actually Madara. IMHO
First, the whole 6th casket gambit is really a wild card. It could be the real Madara OR someone that knows enough about Madara to ruin his plan. If the first is true, that'd require a positive claim from the theorists about who Tobi is, therefore burden of proof and criticism would immediately apply to it. So far, every theory had its flaws:

  • Tobi=Obito: Motive is nonexistent
  • Tobi=Izuna/Shisui/Fugaku: Major plot holes in the middle
  • Tobi=Danzou: Tossed into the trash can by Kishi himself
  • Tobi=Hashirama/Tobirama/Minato: In the belly of the Shinigami
  • Tobi=complete Zetsu clone: Zetsu would require 2 sharingan transplants and even so he had his right eye exposed for the longest time, which would drain his chakra badly. Now with a Sharingan and a Rinnegan, it'd be even worse.
So take your best shot.

Also, that "wise guy" comment only works like you say it does if you pull it out of context: Kabuto had just shown the 6th casket, so he got Madara to cave in on his blackmail. Madara promised Sasuke but said something in the lines of "hands off him during the war, biatch, I'm still the top dog here!" and Kabuto downright mocked him with sarcasm. Kabuto is on a ego trip and he considers himself equal or superior to Madara, so he said "you're own your league, Madara" when he pretty much meant "don't underestimate me, because I got leverage on you". That's why Madara said "wise guy", because he noticed the mocking sarcasm.

This is simple reading comprehension, it's not rocket science.
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Old 07-18-2011, 12:35 PM   #1173
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Re: Just a Thought THREAD

here's a thought, in this war where are all the possible summons? surely they will not want madara to take over, wheres gamabunta and his toads where's enma?
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Old 07-18-2011, 01:01 PM   #1174
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Re: Just a Thought THREAD

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here's a thought, in this war where are all the possible summons? surely they will not want madara to take over, wheres gamabunta and his toads where's enma?
Well, considering the only one with a contract with the toads is Naruto, it's safe to say that he hasn't had a chance to summon them since he just found out about the war 10 minutes ago and just appeared on one of the lines. And Naruto is the only one with a contract with the toads, since the 3 most recent names on the scroll Jiraiya had him sign were Naruto, Minato, and Jiraiya. The same can be said of Enma, if he just hasn't died from old age. Sarutobi was the only known person that had a contract with the monkeys.

And @ batonnoir: Everything Num just said sums it up. You're reading too much into the series and actually making it more complex than it should be. You aren't simplifying anything. Occam's Razor states that Tobi = Madara based on all evidence suggesting that he is and Karin is NOT Uzumaki based on the facts that she doesn't even have the right color hair for "trademark Uzumaki", and she hasn't shown ANY skills with seals.
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Old 07-18-2011, 01:49 PM   #1175
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Re: Just a Thought THREAD

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Well, considering the only one with a contract with the toads is Naruto, it's safe to say that he hasn't had a chance to summon them since he just found out about the war 10 minutes ago and just appeared on one of the lines. And Naruto is the only one with a contract with the toads, since the 3 most recent names on the scroll Jiraiya had him sign were Naruto, Minato, and Jiraiya. The same can be said of Enma, if he just hasn't died from old age. Sarutobi was the only known person that had a contract with the monkeys.

And @ batonnoir: Everything Num just said sums it up. You're reading too much into the series and actually making it more complex than it should be. You aren't simplifying anything. Occam's Razor states that Tobi = Madara based on all evidence suggesting that he is and Karin is NOT Uzumaki based on the facts that she doesn't even have the right color hair for "trademark Uzumaki", and she hasn't shown ANY skills with seals.
That's exactly what i said....just apply Occam's razor to this shit and you will get your answers...anyway afterall this is a manga not a complexe fiction and it's based on the shitty archtype of : bad guy wants to conquer the world and the chosen one stops him at the end. It doesn't matter anyway who is Tobi , because kishi is far away from the ninja theme he created. A ninja it's not a super saiyan , it's a stealthy assassin and combatant.
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Old 07-18-2011, 10:16 PM   #1176
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Re: Just a Thought THREAD

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No it doesn't make sense.Madara could give Nagato the Rinnegan in the same way he gave the edo's the rinnegan and the sharingan.From what we know he didn't have kids with some dead uzumaki body so they can inherit the rinnegan. And the whole genetics thing simply doesn't make sense. Sorry for you.
Hey, what I suggested may or may not come to pass.........but how exactly does it not make sense? If what I said actually is what happens, it is far from the wildest concept in this manga.........and unless somebody makes a valid argument against it, I believe it is very plausable..........so what exactly is with the "Sorry for you."...........is that some attempt at being "cool"?
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Old 07-18-2011, 10:24 PM   #1177
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Re: Just a Thought THREAD

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I find it more likely Tobi is the Rs's elder son if that turns out to be the case. Either that or RS himself. Madara porking a uzumaki women then pissing off nagato 8 years later to see if he awakens the RG seems very unlikely IMO.
Well.........to each their own, but I disagree..........Madara already having 1/2 the original Sage in him and then stealing the 1st Hokages DNA to make himself into the second Sage is established..........Nagato being Uzumaki is established, Nagato being the third Sage is established............the only way for that to happen is to have both sides of the DNA in him. I think it is a pretty good explanation on how that would happen. No?
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Old 07-19-2011, 03:06 AM   #1178
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Re: Just a Thought THREAD

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That's a logical fallacy, because that's the same as saying that all redheads in real life are (descendants of people) from the British Isles and anyone with a brain knows that's bogus.

Just because red hair is a trademark of the Uzumaki, that doesn't mean that all redheads are Uzumaki (for example, Chouza is an Akimichi clansman) or that all Uzumaki are redheads (for example, Naruto).
True enough, but I also draw on other "similarities" such as her fiery temper, similar to Naruto's mom. Also very often healing abilities and longevity go hand and hand. And of course there is the "trademark red hair" that Madara clued us in on. Does that mean that everyone in the Narutoverse with red hair has ties to the Uzumaki?...No, however until more details are made availible about the red haired ninja known to date,,,YES, it is a definite possibility that each and every ninja with red hair has ties to the Uzumaki clan. I apologize for making such an vaguely defendable statement, but blame Kishi, not me. Obviously he does not want us to know the who's, how's, or so whats pertaining to the Uzumaki clan...at least not right now.

Quote:
First, the whole 6th casket gambit is really a wild card. It could be the real Madara OR someone that knows enough about Madara to ruin his plan. If the first is true, that'd require a positive claim from the theorists about who Tobi is, therefore burden of proof and criticism would immediately apply to it. So far, every theory had its flaws:

  • Tobi=Obito: Motive is nonexistent
  • Tobi=Izuna/Shisui/Fugaku: Major plot holes in the middle
  • Tobi=Danzou: Tossed into the trash can by Kishi himself
  • Tobi=Hashirama/Tobirama/Minato: In the belly of the Shinigami
  • Tobi=complete Zetsu clone: Zetsu would require 2 sharingan transplants and even so he had his right eye exposed for the longest time, which would drain his chakra badly. Now with a Sharingan and a Rinnegan, it'd be even worse.
So take your best shot.

Also, that "wise guy" comment only works like you say it does if you pull it out of context: Kabuto had just shown the 6th casket, so he got Madara to cave in on his blackmail. Madara promised Sasuke but said something in the lines of "hands off him during the war, biatch, I'm still the top dog here!" and Kabuto downright mocked him with sarcasm. Kabuto is on a ego trip and he considers himself equal or superior to Madara, so he said "you're own your league, Madara" when he pretty much meant "don't underestimate me, because I got leverage on you". That's why Madara said "wise guy", because he noticed the mocking sarcasm.

This is simple reading comprehension, it's not rocket science.
Not so much reading comprehension as interpretation. I get where you're coming from, but I see the conversation a bit differently because no matter how you slice it, ToDara is in a league by himself. There is only one person in the casket who threaten his claims to be Madara... Yes Kabuto was mocking Madara, e.g. "you go by Madara these days, don't you", but it is because he knows that Tadara is not Madara. He doesn't just call him Madara, but Madara Uchiha, just like Tobi did when he first started claiming to be Madara. He called him a wise guy, because he was being a wise guy by calling him Madara Uchiha...

IMO

P.S. Allow me to add to the who is Tobi pot. I recall a movie called Forbidden Kingdom with Jackie Chan and Jet Li. At the end of the movie, Jackie chan was revealed to be a clone of the Monkey king, who was the baddest mo fo around, but had been tricked and turned to stone. The clone's mission was to bring about the monkey kings release.

I believe that is what Tobi is. A limited power clone created by Madara to revive Madara after he got his ass eviscerated by Hashi and Co. The clone has been collecting the necessary components to bring about the revival of Madara and take him to the next level.

If this was true, Kabuto getting his hands on Madara's spirit would definately throw a wrench in Tobi's plans and make his say" How the hell did you do this?!"
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Old 07-19-2011, 04:01 AM   #1179
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Re: Just a Thought THREAD

You're missing the whole "trademark hair" thing. Karin's hair isn't the same color as the "trademark Uzumaki red". Kushina and Nagato, confirmed Uzumaki, have deep red hair. Karin's hair is a vastly lighter shade of red, completely different from Kushina and Nagato's hair color. Since that seems to be the only piece of evidence you're bringing to claim Karin is Uzumaki, your theory has just been debunked and you should move on from this nonsense. But then you mentioned that healing and longevity go hand in hand, does that make Sakura an Uzumaki? Considering her healing skills have been said to hold the potential to surpass Tsunade. Or how about Chiyo? Is she an Uzumaki? She was a rival medical ninja to Tsunade, and she lived to be 73. Does that count as beyond the normal human lifespan? And before you bring up Tsunade looking young being related to her being 1/4 Uzumaki, do remember that her appearance is due to a technique she uses to appear in her 20s, when she is in her 50s. That has been confirmed several times in both Part 1 and Part 2.

For longevity in general as an argument, does that make Onoki an Uzumaki? He's the only living Kage that has fought with Madara in the past. Or maybe Kakuzu? He fought Hashirama Senju when he was younger. Or how about Hiruzen? Maybe he was part Uzumaki since he was in his 60s when he died? Does that count?

Do you see where these generalizations you're making lead? Just apply Occam's Razor to the story and you'll see that the least complex solutions is that Karin is NOT Uzumaki and Tobi IS Madara Uchiha. If you haven't figured out what Occam's Razor is just from the second half of that sentence, it's the idea that the most logical answer is the one that brings out the fewest assumptions.

As for your movie reference, try again. Jet Li's character was the clone of the monkey king. Jackie Chan was the drunken immortal that gets shot in the beginning. If you're going to use something as a reference, make sure you have the details right.
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Old 07-19-2011, 04:52 AM   #1180
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Re: Just a Thought THREAD

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Not sure, has it been suggested that Madara is Nagato's father? I was reading the U.S. Shonen Jump which is at the part where Madara takes the Rinnegan back........In the translation he says that he gave him the Rinnegan which now that I think about it might mean he passed it on to his child (Nagato). He also says that Nagato was the third sage.......which the original sage is obviously the first, Madara was the second once he stole the 1st hokage's DNA and then by having a child with an Uzumaki he created Nagato which was the third sage having both sides of the original sage's DNA in him..........

Sorry if this has already been discussed, but it makes sense, right? Any opinions?
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Hey, what I suggested may or may not come to pass.........but how exactly does it not make sense? If what I said actually is what happens, it is far from the wildest concept in this manga.........and unless somebody makes a valid argument against it, I believe it is very plausable..........so what exactly is with the "Sorry for you."...........is that some attempt at being "cool"?
First of all it doesn't make sense because it's highly improbable to be that way. Madara is a manipulative and decevieng guy , it's not like he took a shot at banging some Uzumaki hottie and then hoping for the rinnegan to manifest in his newborn son. That's way it doesn't make sense. And you are free to belive anything my friend even if in my opinion it's wrong.

The thing with "sorry for you" Means : sorry for you because you're wrong in so many ways. It's not an attempt to be cool. You asked for opinions , you got it but you still have somethng to comment about it in a negative way.
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Old 07-19-2011, 08:58 AM   #1181
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Re: Just a Thought THREAD

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Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
Do you see where these generalizations you're making lead? Just apply Occam's Razor to the story and you'll see that the least complex solutions is that Karin is NOT Uzumaki and Tobi IS Madara Uchiha. If you haven't figured out what Occam's Razor is just from the second half of that sentence, it's the idea that the most logical answer is the one that brings out the fewest assumptions.
A thousand times this.

Occam's Razor should be the #1 tool in every theory, or else you have a case of epileptic trees: where everybody sees the wind moving the branches of the tree, someone thinks the tree is having an epileptic seizures.

Don't get me wrong, Karin could be an Uzumaki, but that's not indicated or even foreshadowed. Granted, there might be a common ancestry between all the redheads, but that doesn't mean it lies in the Uzumaki clan (and most probably doesn't, considering in real life even Neanderthals had redheads).

Now for Madara...
Quote:
Not so much reading comprehension as interpretation.
It's comprehension in this case, since there's no ambiguity in the scene (unless, of course, you want epileptic trees) to be interpreted. It's pretty much Kabuto and Madara trying to outdo each other verbally, and the first is doing it by mockery and sarcasm.

Quote:
There is only one person in the casket who threaten his claims to be Madara...
Careful there, or that cherry you're trying to pick might fall off.

First of all, as I said, the 6th casket is a wild card. There's absolutely no knowledge about why Madara freaked out. It could be his identity, his plans, the power of the person Edo Tensei'd, it could even be for a reason unknown to us. Saying that only the original Madara is the correct answer because it would threaten his identity the most is cherry picking at its finest.

Quote:
Yes Kabuto was mocking Madara, e.g. "you go by Madara these days, don't you", but it is because he knows that Tadara is not Madara.
And...? You just say that, you don't even say how Kabuto knows that he's not Madara if that's the case? You could say Orochimaru knew, but again, how did Orochimaru know that?

Also, reading comprehension kicks in again. Last time we saw Kabuto was in Hunt for Itachi arc, where Madara was still posing as Tobi. So Kabuto saying that is simply a witty remark at the fact that Madara gave up his previous identity between that arc and the current one.
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Old 07-19-2011, 09:37 AM   #1182
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Re: Just a Thought THREAD

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Originally Posted by Vishnu View Post
This is not Star Wars. It won't be : Nagato, I am your father!




First of all it doesn't make sense because it's highly improbable to be that way. Madara is a manipulative and decevieng guy , it's not like he took a shot at banging some Uzumaki hottie and then hoping for the rinnegan to manifest in his newborn son. That's way it doesn't make sense. And you are free to belive anything my friend even if in my opinion it's wrong.

The thing with "sorry for you" Means : sorry for you because you're wrong in so many ways. It's not an attempt to be cool. You asked for opinions , you got it but you still have somethng to comment about it in a negative way.
No, I appreciate your opinion, but I dont appreciate lame "sorry for you" or "you fail" comments.........especially when you in noway disproved anything I said............You may not like my theory and it may or may not turn out to be right, but either say something to disprove me or offer your opinion on what I said but then leave the lame comments at the end off

.........but just for argument sake..........Madara gave Nagato the Rinnegan...........personally I think Madara being Nagato's father is a far better explanation as to how he did that then anything else I have seen.........but please offer a better explanation then what I did.

Last edited by carcharodon; 07-19-2011 at 09:47 AM.
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Old 07-19-2011, 10:15 AM   #1183
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Re: Just a Thought THREAD

@ carcharodon: Or maybe you should grow a thicker skin if you're so easily offended.

But if you want everything that is wrong with Darth Madara and Nagato Skywalker, here's the short list:
  • Madara was (supposedly) in Kirigakure at the time Nagato was born. And Nagato is from Amegakure, which is pretty much in the other end of the known land. That's quite the detour for a shag.
  • Why would Madara bang a chick so far away if Uzushiogakure was much closer and has a lot more Uzumaki laying around?
  • We've seen Madara's skill when it comes to genetics, creating myriads of Zetsu clones from Hashirama's DNA. So, if the Rinnegan was pretty much an "and add water" thing like you imply, why didn't he made one himself instead of relying on successive flukes (the Konoha ninja storming his place, Jiraiya finding and training him, Nagato killing Yahiko, etc)?
  • Isn't a plot a little too late to drop that information? Madara clearly didn't allude something of such importance, so if he had that bomb to drop, he'd fucking drop it.
Also, remember when Jiraiya said the Rinnegan was a product of times of war? Perhaps Madara was implying that he contributed for the Second Shinobi World War to happen and, if it wasn't for it, Nagato would never awaken the Rinnegan. I know it's not the most exciting of answers, but is the most plausible one.
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Old 07-19-2011, 10:50 AM   #1184
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Re: Just a Thought THREAD

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it.[/LIST]Also, remember when Jiraiya said the Rinnegan was a product of times of war? Perhaps Madara was implying that he contributed for the Second Shinobi World War to happen and, if it wasn't for it, Nagato would never awaken the Rinnegan. I know it's not the most exciting of answers, but is the most plausible one.
thats what I got out of it. Like the circumstances Madara created gave nagato the rinnegan. So in a sense, Madara could say he gave the kyuubi to Naruto and he wants it back. Thatd be a cool line
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Old 07-19-2011, 11:49 AM   #1185
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Re: Just a Thought THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Numinous View Post
@ carcharodon: Or maybe you should grow a thicker skin if you're so easily offended.

But if you want everything that is wrong with Darth Madara and Nagato Skywalker, here's the short list:
  • Madara was (supposedly) in Kirigakure at the time Nagato was born. And Nagato is from Amegakure, which is pretty much in the other end of the known land. That's quite the detour for a shag.
  • Why would Madara bang a chick so far away if Uzushiogakure was much closer and has a lot more Uzumaki laying around?
  • We've seen Madara's skill when it comes to genetics, creating myriads of Zetsu clones from Hashirama's DNA. So, if the Rinnegan was pretty much an "and add water" thing like you imply, why didn't he made one himself instead of relying on successive flukes (the Konoha ninja storming his place, Jiraiya finding and training him, Nagato killing Yahiko, etc)?
  • Isn't a plot a little too late to drop that information? Madara clearly didn't allude something of such importance, so if he had that bomb to drop, he'd fucking drop it.
Also, remember when Jiraiya said the Rinnegan was a product of times of war? Perhaps Madara was implying that he contributed for the Second Shinobi World War to happen and, if it wasn't for it, Nagato would never awaken the Rinnegan. I know it's not the most exciting of answers, but is the most plausible one.
I bow to your wisdom.
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