The Madness

All this logic talk, to me, proves that logic would only make this manga worse. Since one of he best anime I have ever watched taught me to kick logic to the curb and do the impossible.

Miburo

Row Row, Fight teh Powa!

@Fayrra-You're an idiot.

That last post of yours was horrendous. Seriously. "Why debate something if people are going to be illogical?" That can apply to every debate. If you feel that way, then shut the fuck up. Because, according to that line of thought, all debating is pointless. You're not "unbiased." You're just an idiot completely oblivious to your bias. The very fact that you're arguing a specific point that you feel is correct shows bias. Goddamn. So stupid. Ugh.

Logical = correct to anyone who is logical. If you're being illogical, then yeah, logic doesn't matter. But if you're being illogical, then you're in no position to debate a stance. Your opinion is completely irrelevant to anyone but yourself. It holds no weight, no merit. It's useless, objectively speaking.

You talk about universal standards. Logic is universal. Logic is standard. That is why it is used to discuss things objectively. Because anyone able to apply logic correctly will always come to the same conclusion. The only way something that is logical will be seen as illogical to someone is if that person is doing it wrong; doesn't understand logic, being illogical. Same exact way 2+2=4 using standard base10 mathematics every single goddamn time. The only way it wouldn't equal 4 is if the person doing the problem is doing it wrong; doesn't understand the math, is fucking it up.

If Shrike presents an argument based on facts showing that Bleach isn't the best manga ever, then he has presented an objective, universally understandable, logical opinion/argument. If someone disagrees then he has to prove Shrike's argument is not logical. If he cannot, yet still believes that Bleach is the best, then his opinion is subjective and illogical. That cannot be applied universally. It only works in his own little world, not the objective world. Shrike's argument, however, can be applied objectively because it is logical. Therefore universally understood by all who understand logic. It isn't bound by subjective, personal preference. Making his argument objectively superior.

Really, if you want to learn than just read this shit without a desire to argue against it. Which only serves to cloud your judgment. It's really not that hard to understand, assuming you already know the difference between subjectivity and objectivity. If you don't, then I'll explain that to you as well if you really want. But seriously, at the moment you're really fucking stupid. And you seem pretty oblivious of it, as well. Which is a horrible combination. Something you should try to work towards changing, man.


Also, bleach sucks. =D

zer0systm

Fuck Bleach, Transporter 3, Jason Stratham is a fucking Brick Shithouse, but he does have sex with a pretty ugly bitch....

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Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

trondah

Entertainment is opinion, so it doesn't count as much? What kind of logic is that? Really what I think you're trying to say is that your opinion counts and others don't...

I don't see the connection between this and being a man. If you don't care about it then why are you crying?

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Hashirama Senju, the man hailed as the best shinobi of all time.

zer0systm

If you had a brain you'd see where Shrike was coming from, he was saying your comment left with the rep or just the action of leaving neg rep with out signing it was pretty weak and cowardish, why insult someone then not man up and say yeah i fucking said that, what you did was practically call him a name from a crowd and when he turned to see who it was you sunk back into the crowd like you were scared of the repercussions.

Now do you see the Connection between that and being a man.

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Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Narutologist

Excuse me for butting in here but honestly. It amazes me that someone would spend their quality time reading and analyzing something that does not warrant the time. I stand not on the fence but on the opposing side. Do I think bleach is the best manga around absolutely not? Do I read bleach every week plus watch the anime episodes, abso-fucking-lutely. Why you ask, because it is interesting and for you to say it sucks then you must be reading it also. In my opinion bleach has dragged out a little to far but so has some of our other favorite mangas. Instead of complaining about it I would suggest you pick something else to read. If you want to debate a topic...simply pick something else but don’t ruin it for other bleach readers.

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Shrike

This, and then:

R o f l.

naruto_nutty

Hear hear, i can't agree with it being the worst as far as im concern the storyline and main is still interesting, but it is dragging...


What happens when the anime catches up with the manga????

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Here is a link to the sexiest thread ever

(Visiting my Profile may cause Epileptic Fit/Raucous Laughter)

Manske

I know this thread is about the manga, but I just wanted to comment on the anime.

I don't really understand how people find the anime entertaining beyond the soul society arc. Unless it's a very significant fight, the animation quality is terrible. Most of the fights are hard to watch because of this. Not to mention the fact that there are 5 minute recaps on every episode, some of which recap episode 1. For example, Bleach episode 226 starts the recap at how Ichigo became a shinigami. Seriously? The anime is a joke now simply because they're adding shit here and there to keep the real story going before fillers.

The manga isn't the worst ever; it's average at best. The surprises are nothing you wouldn't find in any other shounen manga. Earlier in this thread, someone gave a specific example of how Bleach is unpredictable. I think it was about Nel being the third espada. Even though we didnt know that thats what it was going to be, we knew something was going to happen to her, simply because Ichigo was getting hurt, and she kept screaming. Probably the only good surprise in the manga was when we found out that Isshin has shinigami powers. Most of these other "unpredictable" occurences really are predictable if you know how shounen works. Another quick thing i want to mention about Bleach are the characters. It seems to me that the extent to most characters' personalities stop at being arrogant pricks. Exceptions include Ulquiorra some of the girls, but even then, there really isn't any depth to them. At least not as much as Naruto and other mangas. I probably digress.

Anyway, even though Bleach isn't my favorite, ill keep reading it because i want to see how it ends. /rant

Scientia

Oh no, I accidentally bumped this thread.

And so I've been told. But I've also been told I'm some kind of freaking prodigy with room to grow (I'm not 18, by the way).

As far as my own personal opinion, I'm either high-low or low-mid tier when it comes to that department.

I understand this, in fact, it's actually helping me in a debate that I'm having (hence the reason why I was even reading over this).
This is exactly the problem, he has not shown that it isn't the best manga ever, he has shown that it's stupid, nothing more and nothing less. There's no universal standard of preference that says stupid = a better manga.

His argument that Bleach is stupid is objective and universally understandable if you're logical, however the only fact here is that Bleach is stupid, as in lacking logic. If he is of that opinion than he can state that it is a superior one logically. But that's all. There's nothing to say that not logical equals a crappy manga but your own subjective opinion. Fucking period.
If this hypothetical person can prove Shrike's argument as not logical, then he has proved that Bleach is not a stupid manga. But this is all he has to prove. Because that's all that Shrike has proved. He hasn't proved how it sucks rather than just proved how it's stupid. If he thinks it sucks because it's stupid, then that's fine. But that's a subjective opinion. It's a personal preference.

If you say an apple is more better than a banana because the banana will kill you when you eat it, then you are logically proving that the apple is more superior as a food when its main purpose is so you can survive. However, if you argue that the apple tastes better simply because the banana will kill you, then you are not logically arguing that the apple is superior in taste. And really, there is no way to objectively argue that the taste is superior. It's a personal preference.
Well of course I want to argue against it, I don't agree. lol. It's not necessarily bias, but rather a lack of understanding.
I know the difference. One is opinion that is subject to change, while the other is more factual. AMIRITE?
Only in your opinion, which is completely subjective. 0_o

As for what you said Shrike, it makes sense, however, the general consensus is still simply subjective opinion, just one that most agree upon. You logically argued how Bleach was full of plot holes, etc. And thus, using a general set of standards, you proved how Bleach was a bad manga. Once again, however, this isn't a universal set of standards. You say "people who know how to rate such things" are the people who set the standards. Well, what makes it so that they "know how to rate such things"? Logic? Well, I already said there's no correlation between logic and entertainment preference.

I mean, this isn't a sport where there is a specific goal, which is to win. You could obviously argue that people who win are the more superior players. This probably doesn't really apply to manga, in the end it's a personal subjective preference.

If you want to separate your preference with you're so called consensus standards for judging manga, then by all means do (E.g. calling one manga your favorite and then calling another manga the best). But this isn't a universal thing. Nor is it objective.

If a manga tries to do something a certain way, however, and fails, then by all means you can say that manga sucks balls, because it had a certain goal and couldn't reach it. I'll meet you half way and say that this could be the standard for judging manga logically. If Kubo actually tried to make Bleach logical and failed, then it is not a superior manga in that aspect. That could be one way of looking about it.

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saiyaman

Wow....an old thread lol.

I don't know why people seem to argue for logic and reality in fictional cartoons/anime. The world that they are based on is itself not suited to argue in terms of reality. Sure there are some manga which might be based on real life and all but honestly....having a sword which has a name and manifests itself? When we actually accept such stuff and read a manga it isn't really logical to argue logic in something which you decided was good from someone's imagination.

However somethings in Bleach are plain weird though. It was told that Soul Society was like the most godly ever place where a soul is like safe forever. But then you find out that it's the same as the real world with the actual leaders treating the other raeitsu less souls as though they were unwanted and crap. Yeah, what a great place to go for the good souls.

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x_majiqal_x

Bleach is AWESOME..
It keeps you interested, unlike 90% of manga out ther.

Scientia

Yeah, but when they say logically good, they normally mean that it was well written in terms of a certain set of standards. Art work, character development, etc. They normally don't mean logic in the actual manga universe itself.

Yeah, but wasn't Rukia lying when she said that? Anyway, it doesn't matter, Bleach does have crap like that in it, so I wouldn't doubt it.

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TheThinker

flame war about hating bleach much? if u guys ont like the manga dont read it anymore nuff said