Miburo

No. I'm not saying they're fucking around or not taking anything seriously. I have no doubt that when they ask those stupid questions they're being totally serious. They show up every day and bust their asses for something that is completely optional. And I kick people right the fuck out of the room if they're not taking shit seriously.

And hell, when I first started coaching I did do something like this question thing when guys that have been wrestling for a bit, so they knew the basics already. First I'd just ask what they wanted to learn. Flashy unreliable shit. All they ever wanted to learn. So I scrapped that idea quick.

Then I would try to push them in the right direction, while asking them questions to get them to have a better understanding of the finer points of the art. Simple shit too, just to get them going. Like if I was teaching takedown defense for a high-crotch. When you shoot a high-crotch or a double-leg where do you want your head? "Up." Good. Now where do you think you want your opponent's head if you're trying to stop him from finishing a high-crotch or double? ... ... ... ... What the fuck. Down. Goddamn. Now imagine asking all that shit every time you try explaining something to people. Huge waste of time. Especially when I can just say what I'm trying to explain instead of fishing for answers all the fucking time.

Again, maybe I'm missing something though. If you'd give an example or do a mock learning session using your method than it'd really be helpful. Because it looks like it's one of those things that sounds good on paper, but in practice it won't pan out so well a good majority of the time for average students.

Edit: Trey is right on this one. Again, using wrestling as an example since it's fucking awesome, I'd love to watch your average group of people try to learn to wrestle through reading books and discussing shit vs. a group of people who learned how to wrestle from a wrestling coach. Because that would be quite the lulzy asskicking.

The Madness

I agree a little with both of you, but neither fully.


I agree with RNB, since it's a fucking fact, that if you learn something yourself with your own hard work, mental or physical you will know it better than someone who learned it through someone else.


I agree with Trey that having someone with experience to teach things to you there is a good idea, since it too is a fucking fact.




It comes down to the student and the teacher. If the student is not eager to learn he should fuck off and go flip burgers. If the teacher is not eager to teach he should fuck off and die since he's old and useless.


However, if you have a skilled teacher ready to teach an eager student, which would be the case in RNB's utopia of non-mandatory schools that weren't public...well that would just be peachy.

RNB

Who said you couldn't use a blackboard?

I don't accept the idea that the reason you learn is because you have adapted to that style. You learn because you want to. You may learn better with certain techniques, but as long as you have the desire to learn you can learn using the techniques which you are not so good it. Don't tell me you are completely incapable of learning something unless it is visual.

Thank you so much for using this example because this is precisely the problem I see with our education system. You want to be a blacksmith. Instantly you are putting yourself in a box as if you are ready to accept your destiny of being a blacksmith. Why not be more? Why not enjoy learning to become a blacksmith? You are so focused on becoming a blacksmith that you throw out the joy of learning to become one. The youtube podcast I posted earlier addresses this theme. Alan Watts says that life is a musical thing. We shouldn't be so focused on reaching the end. If we were, people would only record finales. You aren't supposed to wait for the end to come. You are supposed to enjoy the music as you go along. You want to simply give yourself a position where you pick a goal and achieve it, ignoring the process of achieving. That is what you do in the present, and the present is where we enjoy. If you are hell bent on being a blacksmith then this system is not for you. If you want to be a blacksmith and enjoy your life, then there is no system better than this.

__________________
"Nature loves to be hidden."

- Heraclitus

RNB

None of them took it seriously in the first place.

Education is so hell bent on getting those who don't want to learn to learn. That is what everyone seems to be looking for. That is a waste of time though. You might force them to learn, but they will never be successful or produce anything.

I mean, you aren't getting paid to educate the way I want though. You are probably getting paid to produce a wrestler is pretty decent no matter what the costs. The parents already have tainted the education in that case.

Also, I think I put a mock session up there. I think you might have been typing when i posted it. Tell me if you need more.

__________________
"Nature loves to be hidden."

- Heraclitus

Trey

Okay, I can level with RNB. Just being told everything without looking it up yourself isn't the best thing. Of course you should do your own experiments and find some answers yourself. Going back to the physics thing, the teacher could do a broad lesson, like teach momentum or something. You could then go and do some of your own studying and find out what sub-forces are in play, because "just 'cause of fuckin' momentum" didn't cut it for you. Best of both worlds, as far as I see it.

Although, I still think sole self teaching is just retarded. Just knowing basic math and algebra and trying to learn physics out of a book is just like "wtf?" Mostly because what actually happens in nature is different than how we perceive, and a book usually won't be able to impart that distinction.

Kina

You obviously don't learn visually. There are certain subjects that I just cannot learn from reading alone. Ideas like math have to be communicated to me with actions, with visual steps that I can recall as pictures in my mind. I can't even explain things I already know without laying them out visually. Ask my friends, I insist on making diagrams for everything. Some people can read a book on complicated processes and just get it. Plus, there are as many flaws with books as there are with teachers. Books can be ill-explained just as much as teachers can be, afterall.

__________________

RNB

The Greeks used basic math with physics, though they also incorporated some mysticism. I mean, you could always have it so that the physics and math run alongside each other.

Again, I don't think everyone would like this system. There would be the leeches of society who just want to get into a steady job and never produce. If that is what they want then they can get it through the education system we have.

However, those who want to become geniuses need a better system than the one we have. The one we have is useless to them and only weakens them.

Why can't you make it visual or attempt to make it visual? Even if you couldn't, could not a classmate help you understand if you couldn't (though I still disagree that you just can't)?

I don't learn in any specific learning style. I can learn any way possible, and that is how I see it. If I accept that I only learn visually, then aren't I doomed to only learn visually? I definitely agree that math is easier if done visually, but I don't agree that I can't learn it if it is not visual. As long as reasoning is involved, I can learn it.


Also, your point on books and teacher only further points to my point: the fact that we really don't need teachers.

__________________
"Nature loves to be hidden."

- Heraclitus

Trey

I can blacksmith and do anything else I wanted. Your profession doesn't change what you are, it's just what you do for money. It doesn't mean I can't do anything else in life.

And if I wanted to do everything in life, I'd find teachers for the respective things I wanted to do so I wouldn't waste time trying to learn them myself. Y'know, because time is a premium for humans.

Trey

And it took thousands of years after that for humans to realize that if matter went fast enough it'd turn to energy. Hell, back then, they thought there were five elements. Now, we know better. Trial and error. So now, since we have people well versed in the subject, they can teach it to young and inquisitive minds instead of having those students go through trial and error just to find out how much force it would take to punch a hole through their brother's face.

RNB

If you would identify yourself as a blacksmith then that is part of what you believe you are, aka. you identity. I would agree that one doesn't have to be blacksmith and be nothing else. I am just saying that are education is only aimed at "making you a blacksmith" and nothing else. That isn't education. That is job training. You might as well go become an apprentice.

You want to do everything in life that you want to do. However, you will never enjoy doing it. That is my point. Our education doesn't teach us to enjoy what we are and what we can be. It teaches us to become and then become something else, or give up and stay the way we are.

__________________
"Nature loves to be hidden."

- Heraclitus

Trey

So you're putting forth that teaching should be more broad and nurture more skills? I can't necessarily disagree there. However, that's the point of a variety of teachers: they teach you different things.

I'd only do things I'd enjoy. I think we all would. I enjoy physics, so I'm majoring in it. I don't want teachers to "teach" me to love something. No, they should tell you how to understand it, and if you love it then good for you. That point you made kind of contradicts your whole teaching shouldn't be there to force people to learn something.

RNB

All the subjects are interconnected though. Anyone who truly wants to learn wouldn't hate any of the subjects. You can love some more than others, but you should never hate any.

Ask yourself why you love physics and at the same time you might even be able to answer why you dislike other subjects.

__________________
"Nature loves to be hidden."

- Heraclitus

Miburo

What? I'm telling you, they're there to learn. No one forces them to sign up. They don't have to be there. They want to learn to wrestle. The ones that fuck around I throw out. I don't force them to sit there and learn anything. I don't threaten to throw them out, or give them any second chances. You fuck around when it's time to get serious, you're out. Not only do I not force people to learn, I get rid of anyone who doesn't want to be there.

And the school never gave a shit about how well we did or what I taught them. We could play dodgeball every practice and lose every match and they wouldn't give a fuck. I was pretty much just paid to be there, really. I wanted to help the guys who wanted to be good, get good. I saw the thing you said to Trey about enjoying the experience and whatnot. I think people can enjoy experiencing learning to be a non-shitty wrestler though. And I'd certainly enjoy making improvements in my game through training with a wrestling coach while not getting assraped every match, myself.

And yeah, I was typing during that edit. My edit was directed towards that.

Also, come to think of it, how can you be against teachers instructing a class but be for reading books about shit? I mean, think about it. You said there isn't anything a teacher can tell you that a book can't tell you, right? The reverse is also true. There isn't anything a book can tell you that a teacher wouldn't be able to tell you. You could have a teacher instruct a class and discuss it just as easily as you could read a book and discuss it.

Class discussions are fine. But it won't work as the main structure for a class for your average group of people. Like I said, pit a group of people who read a book about wrestling and discussed it then did self practices and shit, and then put them against a group of people who trained under a wrestling coach without any group discussions. The coached team will assrape the mostly self-taught guys. Completely destroy them. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

I use wrestling because it's the easiest way to explain the difference between the two. It's painfully obvious which one would be superior. But all wrestling is really is learning concepts and techniques (acquiring knowledge) and then applying it. So the analogy can easily be applied to any class where you want to learn shit and be able to apply it effectively.

Trey

I doubt anyone really hates a subject, they just use the word as hyperbole to convey their frustration towards it. Honestly, my least liked subject is math even though it's science's fraternal twin. Either way, you seem to have lost your original point somewhere along the line. After a while, you started endorsing teachers teaching, just differently.

Also, to add to what Mibs said, not-sucking at something is enough motivation for someone to do something if they care. Especially when it comes to competition; if I was to seriously pursue wrestling or some fighting style, I'd definitely try to kick as much ass as I could even though it might not be my one love in life.

Mal

I never hated subjects so much as I hated the teacher or the method.