Typhoon

It's true that you have to adapt the techniques in a form according to the situation, but in a fluid-like martial art, the forms will appear pretty fluid-like. The basic forms are often pretty stiff, but the advanced forms should show the real characteristics of the martial art because the forms also teaches the proper footwork and movements. I don't agree that forms are the basics. There are also advanced forms too which teaches more advanced techniques and applications, or maybe in Karate they don't use forms to teach advanced techniques. Is that true?

Anyway, I'll use Wing Chun as an example. The basic form that students first learn is Siu Lim Tao (little idea). This form is really stiff, rigid and simple beacuse it teaches the fundamentals and correct usage of the basic techniques. But as you progress, the forms become more complex. In Wing Chun, the most advanced form is Biu Jee (thrusting fingers). In this form, it's transitions and the execution of techniques are fluid. It's more advanced and it focuses more on the quick motions of Wing Chun. I believe that forms are not just the basics, it can be really advanced too.

Wing Chun is actually kinda similar to Aikido. They both concentrate on defending the attacks. The only difference is that Aikido sorta uses the opponent's power, but Wing Chun deflects the opponent's power/attacks and strikes the opening.

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kakashi5

i'll fight daisuke for the title of best martial artist on NL

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kakashi5

i don't think you've seenntruly advanced practioners performing the truly advanced forms though, they flow.

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Typhoon

But in some of the advanced Karate forms, the techniques are still pretty stiff if you analyze them individually. That's why I said that I think Karate is kinda stiff. I mean, don't you think Karate is kind of a stiff martial art? I'm not saying it's a bad thing, cuz stiff techniques can be effective in it's own way. But I prefer fluid martial arts over stiff martial arts.

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kakashi5

my old style (wado ryu) wasn't very stiff at all. shotokan is a stiffer form of karate, where slow powerful movements are emphasised.

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Typhoon

I've read and heard about Wado Ryu. My friend learned it before, and he said the exact same thing, that's it's not very stiff as other forms of karate. I've looked at some of the techniques before and yeah, it's true. It's one of the very few forms of karate that are like that. I still think it's characterizes as a stiff martial art though. For example in the form kata-pinan nidan - it's stiff. Maybe you know about it.

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kakashi5

pinan nidan despite the name (2nd kata of the pinan series) is the first learnt in wado ryu

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Typhoon

Yeah, I usually only know some of the basic forms of martial arts. I like reading about different martial arts and usually only the basic forms are described and explained.

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kakashi5

the further forms such as naifanchi, kushanku, chinto and seishan are very good.

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[Daisuke]

You're missing the point. let's look at a form. Traditional the set pieces in martial arts are called kata, meaning patterns. if someone could use a whole kata in a fight, it would be a damned ridiculous fight. The way you adapt parts of it to the situation, is what is important.

You don't believe forms are the basics?

This is what I believe: once you know nearly every technique in the martial art, you're preperation has finished. NOW you're ready to begin your training. Now you're at the basic level. People who think "I'm at blackbelt, I'm brilliant now" are wrong. when I got my black belt, I wanted to say "Thank you, Sensei, now I can train" or something like that. And I have. I've improved so much since then, because I'd been teaching. Teaching helps you learn.

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Typhoon

Oh, so that's what you mean by "forms are basics". I guess I agree with you then, that the forms teaches you all the fundamental techniques and prepares you for your self-training. It sorta makes sense now, and I see why you described forms as the basics. That was a new concept for me in Martial Arts. I never thought about forms that way. I always assumed that once a martial artist as mastered all the forms, he's basically a master of the martial art, but I guess I'm wrong. There's still a long way to go before one can be classified as a 'master'.

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Ero

adding to dai's point, theres is really no real way to "master" a martial art. since theres always room to improve and strive, u can be good, but the term "master" really doesn;t appeal to me. i dunno why ..

kakashi5

lol, i know people who perform perfect katas, winning lots of medals for them. my sister can beat them in a fight. Forms don't equal mastery of an art, or even competence if you don't know what you're doing the forms for.

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Typhoon

I guess you guys (Ero_Ni_Sama and Kakashi5) are right. Forms doesn't completely define a martial artist's skills.

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flareofdragon

Wait, what kind of Katas can they do, kakashi5?