superninja

You got to be kidding me, he is clearly saying that because she is about to kiss him and the hormones started to kick in.
About that transforming into a girl thing you mention, well I left the option of him being bisexual open. It could be just that he is curious as to how it's like being a woman, that doesn't mean he is necessarily gay.

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The great off panel war has begun...also called the war of one panel because most fights started and ended in one panel.

Miburo

Uh, please explain how my interpretation is so flawed that you would ask if I was joking, but yours is clearly correct beyond any reasonable doubt. Especially since my interpretation relies on what was just plainly stated on the page, while yours involves hormones and whatnot. None of which is stated, just assumed.

And if you think about it, you're using circular reasoning here. Since your claim that his hormones are racing due to sexual attraction relies on the assumption that he's a heterosexual. Which is also what you're trying to prove.

And if he wanted to see what it's like being a woman he could just do some dishes or something. Not see how bad he can make some dude's nose bleed, which is the animu equivalent of giving a dude a raging erection.

superninja

I see his face blushing and a drop sweat going down his face while Sakura is leaning to kiss him while at the same time he is thinking "I like Sakura so much". That makes me think he is excited about it.
What Sakura said about acknowledgment is probably why he liked her more at that moment coz he can relate to her there. But that didn't cause his physical symptoms to appear, that is caused by being close to a girl at that moment.

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The great off panel war has begun...also called the war of one panel because most fights started and ended in one panel.

Valkero

WTF lolololololol good opinion though lol

Miburo

You do realize that other completely plausible things would cause blushing and sweating, right? Such as anxiety, which can be caused by any number of things. He was impersonating someone else while on the verge of experiencing a new social situation; one that involves a type of acknowledgment, something he had long yearned for; all while being relatively unaccustomed to social interactions in general at that time in his life. A situation like that could easily be a cause of anxiety.

Fact is that your argument relies on the assumption that he is a heterosexual already. Because he is a heterosexual, he is blushing and sweating around a girl. That's pretty much what you're saying. You're not looking at the "evidence" objectively. An argument that relies on the assumption that it's conclusion is already true is a poor argument, plain and simple. Your "evidence" isn't really evidence of anything. Like I said, there are other possible causes of blushing and sweating that fit perfectly into the context of that situation that don't involve raging hormones or sexual attraction.

Or we can stick with your "blushing = raging hormones/sexual attraction" thing, and I can bring up the time when Naruto blushed when Sai asked him about his penis. Was Naruto's hormones going hard then at the thought of another guy being interested in his junk? Or, let me guess, in that situation you'll be able to see how blushing could mean something else besides sexual attraction, right?

You're obviously drawing conclusions first, then trying to back them up afterward. That almost always leads to poor debating. What you should be doing is looking at the evidence first, then hypothesizing. For next time, anyway. Too late now. = )

Tankynator

And why exactly did he actually impersonate someone else if he wasn't attracted to Sakura? Impersonating someone else while trying to fake heterosexuality totally defeats the purpose.

You forget that this is a work of fiction and some jokes are there just for fun. The Sexy-no-jutsu was actually invented to catch attention (during class), not to actually influence men (since he was surprised that it actually worked), but most importantlly it's a proof of what he's acutally based of: A Kitsune.

A Kitsunes most prominent trait is the ability to shapeshift. But since shapeshifting is only a very basic ability everybody can do in this manga (as opposed to the pilot where Naruto was the only one who could) things were taken to another level. And since Kitsune are famous for transforming into young women, Naruto received a running gag by transforming into a naked girl. That's all there is to it.

Yeah, assuming a character is hetero because he loves a girl and even impersonates someone else in order to talk to her, is really stupid compared to the ultimate "Naruto fakes heterosexuality"-theory.
Everything that contradicts your theory has to be a very well hidden fake.

Miburo

Yes, because sexual attraction and puppy love of a relatively socially inept 12 year old boy are totally the same things, right?

I forgot? I didn't forget anything. No shit, it's a work of fiction. You're debating with me about the sexual orientation of a fictional character. If you want to play that card, then what's even the point? Naruto doesn't have a sexual orientation, because he doesn't even exist. He's just some lines drawn on paper.

You can't rationalize his actions that conflict with your stance by using the "This shit is just fiction, yo", and expect me to take your "lolol lyke he luvz a gurl hurr hurr" argument seriously. Because I could just say "The author only did that scene to show how Naruto and Sasuke share a similar pain; a common bond." The chapter is pretty much all about introducing Sasuke, after all.

Which, if anything, only helps my argument. Since as the story develops Sakura becomes more of a deeply valued friend to Naruto than anything else. While Sasuke pretty much becomes Naruto's driving purpose in life.

So, either way, works for me. Invalidate your own argument for me, or try to rationalize Naruto's questionable willingness to attempt to sexually arouse men for his own personal amusement. Good luck with that.

Yeah, it is pretty stupid. Because that was totally "love" in a romantic sense, right? He had no clue as to why he even really liked her until he found out that she only wanted to be accepted/acknowledged, just like him. All the while he's trying to create techniques to sexually arouse older men for his own personal amusement.

And I don't know what you're talking about with the quoted "fakes heterosexuality" thing. His sexual orientation is totally up in the air at this point. He's not faking being a heterosexual, because to do that you actually have to do heterosexual things. Which he hasn't. In fact, quite the opposite. He has at least two girls that have admitted to him that they want his balls, and I'm sure the village hero wouldn't have a hard time picking up almost any chick he wanted in the entire village, but he doesn't seem to give a fuck. Only thing on his mind seems to be Sasuke...

Tankynator

If you try to interprete fiction, the authors intention weight more than the readers individual experiences. Indeed, the chapter in question showed how Naruto and Sasuke have a common pain. But it also shows, that Naruto likes Sakura which is by the way the very reason he considers Sasuke his rival.

It's "Bringing Sasuke back" instead of just "Sasuke" that's Narutos current goal. And that doesn't make any difference to Narutos sexual orientation. Especially since he's aware of Sakuras feelings for Sasuke and supports her.

As I mentioned before, he did not invent it to arouse other men but instead invented it to gain attention during class by causing trouble.

It was one of the OP's main arguments that Naruto's heterosexual action were faked in order to fit in and therefore be accepted. Strange that a such a defender of his theory didn't know that much.

Sakura basically gave up on Sasuke which is the very thing Naruto hates, not to mention that he knew that he's still not first choice for her. Actually he seems to support the SakuSasu-pairing.

As with Hinata, I still expect a flashback that shows how her confession ended up. Even though Kishi didn't want much romance in his manga, he most likely had a reason for Hinatas confession and looking at her past with the Raikage, there will be something.

Miburo

What's your argument here? Do you have an interview you can link me too that shows the author's intention? How about something where he states that Naruto is a heterosexual? Anything? If so, that might help your argument a bit. Because all I'm seeing is a reader's individual interpretation right now.

Semantics. It's the same thing. You're really grasping here.

And it is pretty odd for a heterosexual guy to ignore the advances of multiple females, one of which he supposedly has romantic feelings for, to chase after his bestest bud who had made it pretty clear that he has his own intentions that he wants to follow. Just saying.
Okay. What's your point? He goes around purposely attempting to sexually arouse men. That's a fact. Doesn't matter what it's original purpose was. That's what he uses it to do. No arguing that.

I don't know about you, but I don't go around trying to do things to turn guys on. Not for any reason, ever. How about you?

First off, I'm not the OP. My arguments are my own, I don't need to defend other people's arguments. You don't see me calling you out on Superninja's hormone argument, do you? And that's one of the vastly more intelligent things to come from your stance's side of the fence. Your snide comments do your credibility a huge disservice here.

Secondly, I haven't seen any blatant heterosexual actions taken on Naruto's part. A single crush on an androgynous preteen girl that never materializes into anything more than a friendship; while he completely dismisses her advances after they've matured, isn't what I would call a definitive heterosexual experience in any way. Peeking on girls in a bathhouse to further perfect your technique used to sexually arouse men or write male erotica; or right after your manhood is mocked, doesn't really scream definitive heterosexuality.

There really isn't any definitive heterosexual actions taken by Naruto at all, faked or otherwise.
She was also completely right and showed genuine feeling and care for Naruto. You'd think the love of his life doing something like that would have had a much more profound effect on him.
Okay. Let me consult my magic 8 ball so we can both play the 'predict the future' game together! lololololololol

AOTKorby

The reason he denied Sakura was because he knew damn well that her 'confession' was utter bullshit. With Hinata, Kishi hasn't bothered to/had the guts to actually have Naruto interact with her since the thing. Considering how everything has been happening back to back to back since the start of the IoP arc, we don't know WHAT the hell he honestly thinks about it other than the fact that he was REALLY happy that she didn't end up dying.

The reason he's trying to 'save' Sasuke has changed. He's not doing it as much because Sasuke was his friend and for Sakura, especially since Madara's little talk, Naruto's doing it to prove Madara wrong. Sasuke is more than just a person at this point in the context of redemption, if he could be saved it would basically prove that hatred CAN be overcome.


You've noticed how he always laughed at people's reactions to the technique, right? He doesn't just go around using it to arouse guys, he only uses it at people's expense and his own amusement. Moreover, HE HAS NEVER ONCE USED IT IN THE VACINITY OF SASUKE...make of that what you will.

I can name quite a few:
-Has considered PEEPING on SAKURA. He only decided against it because he realized that she would beat the crap out of him for it. (you do realize that he and Jiraiya are LYING when they refer to their actions as 'research', right!?)
-PROOFREAD Jiraiya's unreleased book.
-Had a very strong 'dude what the hell' stance on Sai's actions.
-Has never honestly said, thought, or implied that he wanted to save Sasuke for himself. He was doing for Sakura (his crush) and Sasuke's sake (because he knew damn well what Orochimaru had planned for him).

Bullshit. He knew that she was lying through her teeth. WE knew that she was lying through her teeth. If she were honestly head-over-heels infatuated with Naruto, she wouldn't have even bothered with the plan to kill Sasuke because she would have stopped caring. She wouldn't have had the desire to prevent Sasuke from turning completely evil even if it meant killing him before the damage could be done. Naruto may have been completely unable to detect Hinata's affection, but Sakura was never half as reserved, and he saw straight through her. This also goes back to the notion of the 'battle of theologies' that he has put himself into against Madara. Even IF it had been completely genuine, he wouldn't have accepted on the account of the fact that he has taken up the mantle of ending the cycle of hatred that Madara seems to desire to perpetuate, and the only way of definitively doing so would BE to prove Madara wrong, and succeed in redeeming Sasuke.

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Miburo

Utter bullshit? What? Seems like she had a genuine concern for Naruto to me. Even if everything she said wasn't true, she still showed she really cared about him.

And yeah, I bet Naruto totally wants to bang Hinata. But that damn Kishi is such a cockblock. Good argument, bro.
If you say so, captain dramatic. No need for me to refute your interpretation, since it doesn't really have anything to do with Naruto's sexual preference.
Okay. So, assuming your straight, you would purposely attempt to sexually arouse men for your own personal amusement? That sounds like typical heterosexual male behavior to you?

-Yeah, just after Sai joked about his manhood. And I already addressed the peeping.
-PROOFREADING BOOKS? Holy shit!!!! That's totally proves someone isn't gay, lolololololol.
-I think anyone would, regardless of sexual preference.
-Of course he's doing it for selfish reasons. He just thinks he isn't. Naruto thinks he knows what's best for Sasuke. Sasuke himself has made it pretty clear that he doesn't need or want to be saved by Naruto. It's actually kinda equatable to a controlling lover, if you think about it. Not implying anything, of course. Just saying the analogy is there because of the whole 'he knows what is better for someone over that person' thing.
Alright, at least you made it easy for me. I don't even need to address her being genuine or not, because you're claiming it wouldn't have mattered anyway. You're claiming that Naruto would ignore a genuine love confession from a girl he supposedly is in love with because...he wants to prove some dude wrong about some guy he's been obsessed with for years. That's totally hetero. Good argument. (^_^)b

Yeah, busted out the fricken weeaboo thumbs up face so the sarcasm wouldn't be lost on that one. How about them apples, bitches.

Tankynator

Basically I was making clear that this is a work of fiction and that the characters behavior is made to fit the story. In this case it means: Romance is just a bonus, NOT the main story. And considering the target audience it means: You don't have to look too deep to find the real meaning.

A real existing heterosexual guy acting this way would actually seem very odd, but not the child of prophecy, the chosen boy to change the world into a better place by bringing even the most lost sheep back to the path of light and peace....
(yeah, I know it sounds weird but it's a foreign language)

When and how was it stated that Naruto wanted to do that? Proof plz.

Followed by several pages of putting your name under every post of a Naruto-is-gay-supporter without posting any real arguments of your own.... well it did your credibility a huge disservice.

It's definitely not homosexual, though.

You're jumping to conclusions here. Naruto never said anything about why he wanted to peek, he didn't say a word for that matter.
So the fact remains, Naruto only wanted to peek, unnoticed of course. If anything, it's hetero.

nc

She showed genuine feeling and care by LYING to him that she loves him more than Sasuke? Considering Hinatas recent confession he most likely didn't intend to be more than friends with Sakura. He had 3 years to get used to that idea.

Did you actually believe that the topic of Hinatas confession would remain ignored? Some things are quite easy to predict, the missing part of the Naruto/Itachi conversion or Minato having sealed part of himself withing Naruto for example, weren't that much of a surprise.

AOTKorby

Most of all though, not all character relationships have to be sexual in nature man.

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Miburo

What's your point? I never said it wasn't a work of fiction and whatnot. You were claiming to know the author's intentions while criticizing readers interpretations. Unless you are the author or have proof showing what his intentions definitively are, then you're just doing exactly what you're criticizing.


And such a boy doesn't have to be a heterosexual.

That's like asking for proof of someone's intent to kill when he points a loaded gun at someone's head and pulls the trigger. The fact that he transforms into a naked or near naked female and acts flirtatiously with dudes makes his intentions quite clear.


You quoted me when I was addressing people talking about Puerto Rican culture. I was saying it had nothing to do with the topic of discussion. Because it doesn't. Uh, so, yeah. Good one?

And how exactly does thanking posts I enjoyed reading have any correlation with my credibility? How am I not posting any real arguments of my own, yet clearly doing it right now? I don't know how knowledgeable you are when it comes to debating, but if this was a formal debate between the two of us with professional judges then I'd be clearly kicking the shit out of you. That doesn't say much for your argumentation skills if I'm not even posting any real arguments, like you're claiming, now does it?

Also, I've been rather civil with you during this recent bout of posts. I don't see why you're so vehement with your personal attacks against me. You've said negative things about me personally multiple times throughout this thread, for really no good reason. And I'm still being pretty damn nice to you despite that fact, and the fact that you really aren't even all that good at debating either. If I wanted to, I could be a huge dick and make fun of you hardcore. So how about chilling the fuck out so you don't make yourself look like even more of a butthurt spiteful douche?

I mean, I can understand your frustration and all. If you want I can cut down on the subtle mocking that I tend to do when I respond to extremely poor arguments, if that's what is getting to you. All you have to do is ask, man. A little politeness will go a long way. = )



My stance is that Naruto might be gay/bi; which also means he might be straight. As of right now, there is no reason to assume either position, since he hasn't done anything that would definitively show he is either gay or straight.

So I'm operating under the assumption that you don't agree with me, since you're arguing with me. And that you are saying he's definitely straight, which would mean he's definitely not gay. You have to prove he's straight then. I'm saying he hasn't shown anything that would give any indication that he's definitely straight. I'm not saying that he's definitely gay. So this counter argument of yours is worthless, since I never said otherwise.

Here are your options:

-Agree with me when I say it could be either or. Meaning I'm right, he could be gay. (You could say "Yes, you're correct Miburo. It is certainly possible that Naruto might be gay. Though, I personally don't think he is a homosexual.") This is the logical choice. And then I win. Woot, victory.

-Disagree with me, and then try to prove he's definitely not gay, or definitely straight. Good luck with that. You'll just make yourself look dumb, since there isn't any definitive evidence to back either claim. I'll then laugh at your expense, and consider that a victory of sorts within itself. Woot, I still win.

Notice the "or"s in my post? Those aren't "and"s. Meaning I'm referring to separate things individually. I addressed that scene already in the quoted message with one of my "or"s.

Don't know what that means.


Yeah. You can lie to people while still caring about them and their well-being. I can elaborate and use an analogy for you or something if you really can't grasp such a simple concept, and would like me to further explain it to you. Just say the word, man.

I couldn't care less. My point was that arguments based on future events in the story that haven't occurred, or may never occur, aren't really the most relevant or compelling of arguments.

No shit, bro. For example, Naruto's relationships with females.

Scientia

It think he's going to go with the third option that you left out, though. And that would be that he disagrees with you, but only in the stance that the chance of Naruto being homosexual is not equal to the chance that Naruto is heterosexual. So not that he is definitely straight, just that it is more probable. And he'll try to prove that.

Not necessarily true. Think about the God debate, it's the same concept here. There's no definitive proof that God exists and none that he doesn't, yet you can still take a stance on it because it would be more logical. So there's no need to show that he is definitely gay or straight, to take a stance, but rather whether it is more logical based on deductive/inductive reasoning. Or there's always proof via contradiction, that's actually my favorite type. <3

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