Miburo

Oh, don't get me wrong. I assume he's going to keep fighting, because he seems like the spiteful type and I was egging him on there. But what you're describing isn't a third option, it's the second option I listed. I'll explain in the next part as to why.

It doesn't work that way in this scenario. In the God debate, one side is claiming existence. The default before any claim is non-existence. So non-existence is the more probable and logical stance until claim of existence is sufficiently established via credible proof.

In the discussion on sexuality, there really isn't a default stance when it comes to a single individual. It's not like you're straight until proven gay. And it's not like the odds of Naruto being gay are so astronomically small that they only exist because of the philosophical concept of inherent doubt found in all of knowledge. Unless someone discloses their sexual orientation, either by openly stating it or definitively showing it somehow, then all possible orientations are equally probable.

I really wasn't trying to be a dick to the dude when I listed those options. I really do already know how it would end should he choose to continue, or choose the option you're suggesting. He will fail in proving his point. And I think we've debated enough for you to know I'm not really the foolishly arrogant type. If I'm confident about something, it's because I have a good reason to be. There isn't nearly enough evidence available to support an opposing stance. Dude really should just go with option A, and end it with a respectful disagreement.

And did you just heart at me? You know I don't own a fursuit. = /

Tankynator

Ok, a few posts ago you asked me whether to use reality for this diskussion or stick to the fact that it's fiction. Obviously I stick to fictionality, so where exactly is your problem? When I say that romance is just a bonus, do you really disagree? Do I really need to proof such an obvious fact? Just compare the amount of real romantic scenes with the amount of battles.

I asked for proof because it really was never stated that Naruto was using that jutsu only to arouse men. You already admitted that this wasn't his original intention so when did he do it to arouse men for his own amusement?

Chapter 1, Iruka? No, he wanted attention during class.
Chapter 1, Hokage? No, he wanted to distract him and it actually knocked him out.
Chapter 2, Ebisu? No, he was proving that he could defeat someone with that jutsu after Konohamaru failed.
Chapter 91, Jiraya? You have to be really stupid not to realise that this will work.

Now this is arrogance at it's best. Claiming to win a debate while refusing to give proof (or even an example) for something you consider obvious. Arguments need examples to work, so I suggest you start using them.

And yes, it would be nice to cease personnal attacks from now on, so I'll do my best to not attack you. But you're not making it easy for me.

Aren't you contradicting yourself? Why are did you use provocations like

if you actually try to defend a fifty-fifty chance of him being either gay or straight?
Right now it looks like you changed your mind especially since I never claimed that there was no chance of him being gay. I always said that the cance of Naruto being gay is rather small and you should know that.

You win? How exactly is this your victory if my opinion hasn't changed compared to two month ago?

So with your presented options this debate was bouind to end up as a draw from the very beginning, since you actually didn't present a different opinion than me.

To me this discussion was about which case is more likely: Naruto being gay or straight.
My opinion has been clear from the beginning: He's most likely straight.

If you want to stick to Naruto most likely being gay you will have to present arguments that really support this point. It's not enough if a situation can be interpreted with Naruto being gay if him being straight gives a better (or equal) explanation.




Aren't you missing the point? Naruto had good reasons to turn Sakura down without being gay.

Miburo

Romance is a bonus? Okay, so what? What's your point? What does that prove in regards to Naruto's sexuality?

Uh, seriously? You can't be serious, can you? You're not even refuting what I'm saying at all. The purpose of the technique is to arouse men. What he uses the technique to accomplish is a different matter. A stripper does a lap-dance to make money, but the purpose of a lap-dance is to arouse the customer. It's not really that hard of a concept to grasp.

Let's use a much more obvious example. You get into a school yard, non life or death, fight. Would you, as a heterosexual male, give a guy a handjob if you knew it would distract him and help you win? Yes or no.

Same logic applies here. Standard heterosexual male behavior doesn't involve using techniques that would sexually arouse men, for nearly any reason. Especially not just for shits and giggles during class, to distract someone, to prove a point, or to get something you want from some dude.

I really fail to see how this isn't sinking in for you.

Alright, champ. Give me some examples of where I'm not providing any premises to support my argument. Oh wise debating sage.
Whatever. Doesn't matter to me, I was just calling you out for being such a baby douche about shit. You can keep it up if you want, I'll win a contest of who can be the bigger asshole any day of the week. ; )
Nope.

If I flip a coin there is an equal chance of it being heads or tails. What? Hey, heads or tails? OH you picked heads? What, you don't think there is an equal chance it could be tails? LOLOLOL lyke look likes someone is contradicting themselves huurrrr.

See how completely stupid this argument of yours is yet? Just because I have an (valid) opinion doesn't mean I'm ignoring probabilities.

Uh, because I was responding to some dumbshit that was going on about hormones and then you engaged me and attacked my stance. So either you attacked my stance without even understanding it, which makes you a moron. Or you attacked my stance despite the fact that you agree with it, which also makes you a moron. Or you changed your mind, which means I successfully proved my stance. If one of us was going to get his hand raised, it'd be me.

It's not really a draw if you attack me personally, attack my stance, then say "Oh, I have the same stance as you lolololol I guess it's a tie lololool" It's more like you made yourself look like an ass for no reason.

Okay. Prove that the actual probability of him being straight is greater than that of him being gay using logically credible evidence. Like I said earlier, good luck proving that.

My stance is that there is no way of definitively knowing whether he is gay or not, but if I was going to pick a stance it would be that he is gay. I can justify my stance logically, but I'm making no claims that my stance is more statistically probable than any other sexual orientation at this point in time.
I personally think Naruto is gay. And I have presented arguments that justify that stance. It's like picking heads or tails. I pick heads, and can justify it by pointing out that it's most definitely possible that a coin will land heads side up. And then I can show the probability using math. So I can present logical arguments to support my stance. Same thing applies here. I've justified my argument, as have others who share a similar view. I don't know why you keep saying "present arguments" all the damn time. It's like you're incapable of seeing what's plainly in front of your face. I've been doing that this entire time.


Oh, was that the point you were trying to make? Well, that's kinda stupid. Because all I was saying is that turning down chicks you supposedly really like certainly isn't proof of being straight. Not that it makes him a total fag.

Tankynator

Did you really compare the chance of an individual being homo/hetero with the flip of a coin? If you flip a coin many times, e.g. 6.800.000.000 times, then you will have about equal amounts of heads and tails. So if half of humanity were homosexual, why have they ever been considered a minority?
The amount of homosexual humans seem to be far below 50%, at about 20% at best (at least that's what I found on wiki). You're not flipping a coin, you're rolling a 10-sided dice trying to throw a 9 or 10. Just because there are two alternatives doesn't mean that they are equally likely to happen.

Hitomare Urufu

Has anyone suggested that people look at Chapter 347 pages 10-11? I suggest you see what Naruto has to say about this sort of stuff. Bottom right on p.10. And top left on p.11.

http://www.narutocentral.com/manga.p...ruto&c=347&p=9

http://www.narutocentral.com/manga.p...uto&c=347&p=10

__________________
If you don't feel like standing behind your troops feel free to stand infront of them.

I found this helpful maybe you will to
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5496615/1/My_Naruhina_rant

Scientia

Okay, so the analogy was flawed, I get that. But, no, the odds are not equally as probable. You do not need definitive proof to show that someone either being straight or gay is a more logical stance to take. That was my main point. You said it yourself on a thread a while ago, if you see two men holding hands together in a shop, there's nothing wrong with assuming they are gay, because said assumption is more logical. And because it is more logical it is more probable. Them holding hands isn't definitive proof, after all.
No, it was a heart signifying my love for proof by contradiction. Though, you know, the only three things I truly love are Boxxy, Gantz, and Berserk. =/

Oh, and the only reason I would ever heart at you is because you're intelligent. Just for future reference.

__________________
------------------------------------------

"There was a footpath leading across fields in New Southgate, and I used to go there alone to watch the sunset and contemplate suicide. I did not, however, commit suicide, because I wished to know more of Mathematics."

arctic_knight

well ya he's jealous that he did it of Sasuke and Sai and not Sasuke and him

Miburo

I'm actually well aware that homosexuals are a minority in our society. And I figured you'd try saying something like that, which is why I worded it the way I did. I'm talking about a single individual looked at in a vacuum, which is the most logical way to view it since we lack any sort of sexual orientation distribution statistics for Naruto's world. Any one person could be gay or straight. It's not seven billion coin flips, it's just one. That was the purpose of the analogy.

Furthermore, if you're going to try to argue the statistical probability of being gay based on estimated population sampling, then I hope you're going to show some stats on Naruto's universe in regards to population and sexual orientation distribution. I don't mind people assuming physics and whatnot operate like they do in the real world, since nothing is ever been shown otherwise. But it's clearly been shown that the story of Naruto takes place on a vastly different world than that of planet earth. With different countries, customs, population, etc.

And, although I hesitate to bring this up since it could be more fun to let you do it first and then mock you for it, there has been very few shown relationships in Naruto, and all take place in a pretty small portion of Naruto's world. So if you try using those as a sample to base statistics on, then that'd be pretty stupid. Considering the poor distribution and number of the sample group you'd be using.

Nice try though, I suppose. Thanks for narrowing your argument to one poorly constructed, easily countered point while ignoring the rest of my previous post. Made shit easy as all fuck for me. = )

Jaxon

This image macro is as relevant to this thread as about 60% of the posts here.

AOTKorby

Your sheer overconfidence and boastfulness when you have no stronger an argument than the other side is astounding. Must come from having the ability to end any argument you want with the click of a button.

You constantly claim that the counterpoint is 'assuming' that certain things show evidence of Naruto being straight, but what have you honestly done this whole time except look at things happening and finding the one way you can interpret it that makes him look gay?

You say that you win if the other side acknowledges the possibility, but guess what? Most of us HAVE. We're not arguing that he CAN'T be gay, we're arguing that he's MOST LIKELY straight. You're basically trying to argue that only your 'evidence' (if it even deserves such a title) is valid, with the counterpoint's 'evidence' (still not completely factual, but looking at things from a normal, 'don't assume everything is gay subtext', mostly logical stance) being lies or misinterpretations.

And for not going for ad hominem, your self-righteousness, what have you been DOING the last page if not actively insulting people and/or their opinions? You claim that you're veritably superior to everyone else arguing just because you refuse to acknowledge any interpretation of facts other than your own, and are perfectly willing to be a complete douche in order to enact a classic "I made you sick of arguing by being a douche, therefore I win the argument."

__________________

Jaxon

Miburo has never closed a genuine debate.

And you're looking at things happening and formulating an argument that makes Naruto look defiantely heterosexual. It's called formulating an argument, genius.

Then you have, by definition, lost. You wouldn't be arguing here if you had reached a satisfying overview. Since this is a manga, the choice of revelation when it comes to Naruto's sexuality is the decision of the author. This is from the thought process "Is Naruto gay; Y/N". This is a 50/50 decision. There is no "MOST LIKELY" option. Naruto is not real. Since you have admitted there is a possibility, the option is there, and therefore that thought process exists. End.

Oh, hey, a paragraph that doesn't contribute to the debate, and whines in a butthurt little voice while calling Miburo a douche, repeatedly. Hey, at least you fit in great with the rest of the Naruto section!

AOTKorby

I hope you don't get involved again.

__________________

Tankynator

And what makes you assume that there IS a 50% chance of being homosexual given the fact that we've encountered no proven gay character? Your main point doesn't work out, since it's not a coin flip if there's no basic 50% chance of a character being homosexual.

Regarding the rest of your post, why should I repeat myself? You've ignoring and misunderstanding my arguments and arrived at the point where I would have to repeat myself to explain it. You compare a joke to a handjob and expect me to take you seriously? I already explained what the sexy no jutsu is: a joke for the audience, based on the mythology Narutos character is based on. It's stupid to take an obvious joke literally.
And turning a girl down because you know she actually loves someone else doesn't make you gay either...

Jaxon

Wow, thanks GI Joe. I sure love hearing your moral observations after every show.

Ah, no, the other side's evidence has been adressed multiple times. He's not ignored the evidence, he's simply stated a preference for the stated evidence to the contrary. As you have. It's called taking a side. The point is there is no "reality", since Naruto's sexual preference has not been explicitly stated. This is all speculation, on both sides.

No, the point of the OP was to present a point for debate. That is the point of a thread, of a discussion on a forum. Otherwise it would be on the Internet in the form of a comment-locked blog post, say.

Oh my God. You're not seriously debating on the statistics of homosexual percentages in the real world? This all hinges around the fact you're debating this as if Naruto was a real person, in the real world. He is not. He is a character with pre-defined actions and lines. For a start, my point is that this kind of logic is moot. And even if it wasn't, who are you to say 50% of the population in the Naruto universe are not gay? It's not been touched upon at all. For all you know, half the fire country could be complete flamers. The world of Naruto is barely explored at all, what with all the chakra-fuelled dickslapping that makes up an average chapter.

My point is, you have acknowledged there is a chance Naruto is gay. So there are two ways he can be presented by Kishimoto at this point. Straight, or Gay. Or hell, let's add in Bisexual too. What happens in the manga is literally what he writes, so for whatever crazy reasons are in the man's head, he could go for any of the three. So the chance for each is 3.33 rec. You could say that you could judge from the precedent of what's come before, but shit, you have no idea what's in that guy's head. He might suddenly declare that Naruto is gay for the Third Hokage, and he mourns for his lust-object's death. He's done stupider shit in this crappy manga. You guys would still read it, right? Hell, Konohamaru's successfully performed the rasengan on an S-rank ninja.

Nice of you to miss the irony of me adressing your paragraph-long whinefest with a two line response. Cry some more, yo.

Miburo

Kind of funny you're saying I pretty much suck at debating, yet no where in this massive whine-fest post of yours did you once point out a specific logical fallacy of mine or counter any of my arguments.

Also, cry more, kid.

You do understand the concept of an analogy, right? I'm saying there is an equal chance of Naruto being gay or straight. Like Jaxon pointed out, he could be bisexual or have no sexual preference at all (since he's a goddamn cartoon.). Just like there is an equal chance of a coin flip being heads or tails. Not that it's necessarily 50%.

And I'm fairly sure there has been at least one instance of male on male action shown in the manga, when that little kid did that one jutsu. Which suggests homosexuality exists in the Naruto universe.

I assume that counter-argument addresses your argument. Since an argument consisting of some sort of statistical comparison between homosexual characters shown to heterosexual characters shown to show that there is a disproportion would be extremely, extremely retarded considering the really small sample size involved. So I'm being nice and giving you the benefit of the doubt by not assuming you're actually stupid enough to suggest such a thing. You're welcome.

And you still haven't addressed the point I was making with the technique that sexually arouses men. Saying it's a joke doesn't make it any less of a non-typical heterosexual male behavior. Crying about my analogies because you don't get the point of them doesn't make my argument invalid. But it's okay, I understand you not wanting to dig an even bigger ditch for yourself.


Also, Jaxon <3