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Old 02-03-2010, 05:19 AM   #586
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Re: Naruto's Homosexuality

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Originally Posted by Miburo View Post
You do understand the concept of an analogy, right? I'm saying there is an equal chance of Naruto being gay or straight. Like Jaxon pointed out, he could be bisexual or have no sexual preference at all (since he's a goddamn cartoon.). Just like there is an equal chance of a coin flip being heads or tails. Not that it's necessarily 50%.
Just because there are four possible outcomes doesn't mean that each outcome is equally possible.

At noon (of a random picked day, somewhere in africa) it can be either bright (sunlight) or dark (solar eclipse), these are two events where we know that one will happen, yet the possibility of it being bright is significantly higher.

So you will have to explain why Kishi should make Narutos sexual orientation to be a complete random decision. There's no reason for him to make a character gay after about 500 chapters.

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And you still haven't addressed the point I was making with the technique that sexually arouses men.
It has never been Narutos intention. In the one instance where someone said "stay that way!" he immediately broke the technique because he felt uncomfortable.
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Old 02-03-2010, 08:18 AM   #587
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Re: Naruto's Homosexuality

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Originally Posted by Tankynator View Post
Just because there are four possible outcomes doesn't mean that each outcome is equally possible.

At noon (of a random picked day, somewhere in africa) it can be either bright (sunlight) or dark (solar eclipse), these are two events where we know that one will happen, yet the possibility of it being bright is significantly higher.
What? I never said all outcomes, in any situation you can think of, are always going to be equally probable. I said in this particular situation that is the case. So if you're going to try to counter-argue my point, then actually counter-argue my point. Not something I never even said.
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So you will have to explain why Kishi should make Narutos sexual orientation to be a complete random decision. There's no reason for him to make a character gay after about 500 chapters.
Why exactly would I have to do that? Like Jaxon already pointed out, Kishimoto can do whatever the fuck he wants. And it really doesn't have to make any sense at all to us. In regards to Naruto's sexual orientation, Kishimoto could make it whatever he wants for whatever reason he feels like, nonsensical or otherwise. There doesn't have to be any logic to what he does. No rationale. Anything is equally possible. You can't argue from the author's standpoint unless you're actually the author yourself.

And, like has already been pointed out by my esteemed comrade, it's not like he hasn't done shit that people would think is stupid as fuck already. If I hopped in a time machine and went back two years and made a post on this site saying that Konahomowhateveramoru would pull a rasengan out his ass on arguably the strongest ninja in the entire series, despite only being fucking ten or some shit and only being in something like fifty panels of the entire manga, and that Danzo would bust out an arm full of sharigan eyeballs while battling sasuke and actually say something equivalent to "ALL UR SHARIGAN ARE BELONG TO ME LOLOLOL" how would people react? They'd say that is the dumbest shit they've ever heard in their entire lives, it'll never happen, and call me a fucking moronic douche, etc. Kinda exactly like what people are doing now in response to the suggestion that Naruto could be gay...

You can't predict this shit. You can't base probabilities on what the author might do. Because he can do whatever the fuck he wants. If he wants Naruto to be gay, then Naruto is going to be gay regardless of anything else.

This argument of yours has got to be the single worst way possible to argue the point of view that Naruto is most likely not gay that I've seen yet. I honestly couldn't think of a worse argument that wouldn't involve just bashing your head on your keyboard for a few minutes and then clicking the post button. 'Why would Kishi do that lololololol.' Wow. And to think I actually warned you that you'd just make an ass of yourself if you continued, while giving you the option to agree that we have some common ground so you can call it quits while retaining some dignity. How sad. = /


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It has never been Narutos intention. In the one instance where someone said "stay that way!" he immediately broke the technique because he felt uncomfortable.
You're still ignoring the point. The purpose of the technique is to sexually arouse men (It's called the Sexy/Harem technique and is only used on dudes, for fuck's sake. And almost always results in a guy getting a massive nosebleed, which is pretty much the animu equivalent of jizzing in your pants...). That's what the technique does. Just like a lap-dance or a strip-tease. Just because strippers do it to make money to pay for college or some shit doesn't change the purpose of the technique/action. And the same thing can be said if she feels uncomfortable in the middle of doing a lap-dance and stops. Again, the purpose of the technique doesn't change because of any of that shit.

So, once again, as a heterosexual male, would you do something thats purpose is to arouse other men? Would you consider that typical heterosexual behavior? They're simple questions.
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Old 02-03-2010, 10:42 AM   #588
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Re: Naruto's Homosexuality

So your main point is that the author will randomly make up Narutos sexuality because he can and there have been some minor occurences that weren't fully predictable and seemed as if he randomly made them up? And because of some minor scenes in the manga you expect Kishi to most likely turn Naruto gay?

Considering how predictable some major scenes and plot twists have been, your whole argument is nothing but a bad joke.

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If I hopped in a time machine and went back two years and made a post on this site saying that Konahomowhateveramoru would pull a rasengan out his ass on arguably the strongest ninja in the entire series, despite only being fucking ten or some shit and only being in something like fifty panels of the entire manga, and that Danzo would bust out an arm full of sharigan eyeballs while battling sasuke and actually say something equivalent to "ALL UR SHARIGAN ARE BELONG TO ME LOLOLOL" how would people react?
Konohamaru knowing the Rasengan wasn't too much of a surprise, all he ever did was copying Naruto. Saying that Danzou posessed the Sharingan was also much more predictable than him posessing 11 Sharingan eyes.

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You're still ignoring the point. The purpose of the technique is to sexually arouse men. That's what the technique does. Just like a lap-dance or a strip-tease. Just because strippers do it to make money to pay for college or some shit doesn't change the purpose of the technique/action. And the same thing can be said if she feels uncomfortable in the middle of doing a lap-dance and stops. Again, the purpose of the technique doesn't change because of any of that shit.
You have been constantly ignoring my point that this whole technique exist for the fun of it with no actual relevance to the plot. It's not my problem that you don't know what fanservice is and that it doesn't need a deeper meaning.
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Old 02-03-2010, 10:52 AM   #589
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Re: Naruto's Homosexuality

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Originally Posted by Tankynator View Post
You have been constantly ignoring my point that this whole technique exist for the fun of it with no actual relevance to the plot. It's not my problem that you don't know what fanservice is and that it doesn't need a deeper meaning.
it's just Kishimoto's way of hinting to us Naruto plays for the other team, by other team i mean the homosexual team. cause really what straight guy would create a jutsu which main purpose it to arouse men?
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:16 PM   #590
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Re: Naruto's Homosexuality

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Originally Posted by Tankynator View Post
So your main point is that the author will randomly make up Narutos sexuality because he can and there have been some minor occurences that weren't fully predictable and seemed as if he randomly made them up? And because of some minor scenes in the manga you expect Kishi to most likely turn Naruto gay?
Nope. And nope. Reading comprehension isn't your forte, I see.

I'm saying that Kishimoto can do whatever the fuck he wants. Unless you're Kishimoto, or have some insider info regarding how he's going to do shit, all you know is that he is equally capable of making Naruto gay or straight.

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Considering how predictable some major scenes and plot twists have been, your whole argument is nothing but a bad joke.
Considering you didn't even seem to comprehend my counter-argument, commenting on it's validity isn't the pinnacle of intelligence either.
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Konohamaru knowing the Rasengan wasn't too much of a surprise, all he ever did was copying Naruto. Saying that Danzou posessed the Sharingan was also much more predictable than him posessing 11 Sharingan eyes.
Yeah, a little kid (Who until that point was only able to mimic naruto's low-level, sexually arousing men techniques) successfully using a ridiculously high level technique on a ridiculously powerful opponent sure made a shitload of sense and wouldn't have been mocked hardcore if someone suggested it would happen prior to it actually happening. And no one would have ever made fun of a poster here if they suggested Danzo had an entire arm covered in sharigan eyeballs before it was actually shown. Compared to that kind of stuff, Naruto being gay isn't really a huge stretch of the imagination, really.


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You have been constantly ignoring my point that this whole technique exist for the fun of it with no actual relevance to the plot. It's not my problem that you don't know what fanservice is and that it doesn't need a deeper meaning.
I haven't ignored it, it just doesn't matter. He does it in the manga. It's as simple as that. It's totally canon. Is it typical heterosexual behavior? Yes or no?

Besides, weren't you saying that romance in general was just a bonus anyway? Naruto's sexual orientation doesn't have to have some significant relevance to the plot either. It could be just exist for the fun of it and have no actual relevance too. He can still go on to be the child of destiny or what-the-fuck-ever and be gay, after all. Your entire point is meaningless.
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Old 02-03-2010, 01:22 PM   #591
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Re: Naruto's Homosexuality

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Yeah, a little kid (Who until that point was only able to mimic naruto's low-level, sexually arousing men techniques) successfully using a ridiculously high level technique on a ridiculously powerful opponent sure made a shitload of sense and wouldn't have been mocked hardcore if someone suggested it would happen prior to it actually happening. And no one would have ever made fun of a poster here if they suggested Danzo had an entire arm covered in sharigan eyeballs before it was actually shown. Compared to that kind of stuff, Naruto being gay isn't really a huge stretch of the imagination, really.
Yeah I agree... Both of those were really WTF random insertions and a lot would have lashed out for the unfortunate posters who made those topics ...

Considering some people actually think Naruto could be gay, "if" it is made true, that wouldn't be too shocking to the Naruto community considering this topic has been debated upon for some time now (and there's evidence that goes in pro and con to it)...

It's not like saying Jiraiya is the son of the two elders...
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Old 02-03-2010, 01:22 PM   #592
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Re: Naruto's Homosexuality

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Originally Posted by Miburo View Post
Nope. And nope. Reading comprehension isn't your forte, I see.
That's my line

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I'm saying that Kishimoto can do whatever the fuck he wants. Unless you're Kishimoto, or have some insider info regarding how he's going to do shit, all you know is that he is equally capable of making Naruto gay or straight.
I repeat myself once again: What makes you think, that Kishi will actually consider both options with equal possibility? Oh wait, I know: You'll just state this as a fact since you don't know better.

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Yeah, a little kid (Who until that point was only able to mimic naruto's low-level, sexually arousing men techniques) successfully using a ridiculously high level technique on a ridiculously powerful opponent sure made a shitload of sense and wouldn't have been mocked hardcore if someone suggested it would happen prior to it actually happening. And no one would have ever made fun of a poster here if they suggested Danzo had an entire arm covered in sharigan eyeballs before it was actually shown. Compared to that kind of stuff, Naruto being gay isn't really a huge stretch of the imagination, really.
Reread my post and show where exactly I mentioned Konohamaru actually fighting Pain! Also I simply mentioned Danzou posessing the Sharingan being more believable than him having 11 of them, but hey since when did you understand my posts anyway?
Btw, Konohamaru has been shown knowing Kage Bunshin (which IS high level) about three years ago. And he's about the same age, Naruto was when he learned Rasengan...

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I haven't ignored it, it just doesn't matter. He does it in the manga. It's as simple as that. It's totally canon. Is it typical heterosexual behavior? Yes or no?
Your point doesn't matter because the whole technique is fanservice.

Quote:
Besides, weren't you saying that romance in general was just a bonus anyway? Naruto's sexual orientation doesn't have to have some significant relevance to the plot either. It could be just exist for the fun of it and have no actual relevance too. He can still go on to be the child of destiny or what-the-fuck-ever and be gay, after all. Your entire point is meaningless.
The plot might endure it, but I doubt the audience will. Turning the main protagonist (=role model) gay in a manga aimed at teenage boys sounds quite risky for me.
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Old 02-03-2010, 03:24 PM   #593
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Re: Naruto's Homosexuality

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Originally Posted by Tankynator View Post
That's my line
Yeah, I guess you could say it too. Considering saying shit that makes absolutely no sense does fit your M.O.

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I repeat myself once again: What makes you think, that Kishi will actually consider both options with equal possibility? Oh wait, I know: You'll just state this as a fact since you don't know better.
Huh? He's equally capable of choosing either option. There is no default stance, it's all up to him. I'm not claiming to know what he's going to actually do, or to know what he's actually thinking. Without actually knowing what Kishimoto is thinking, you can't say anything is more or less probable than anything else. And if you can't say anything is more probable than other things, or less probable than other things, then they're all equally probable based on the knowledge available to us.

Example time: I'm writing a story. You're in it. Someone makes a thread trying to guess your sexual orientation in my story. Some people say gay, some say straight, some say you're a goddamn furry who loves being yiffed in the ass. No one is more right than anyone else. No answer is more probable than another. They all could equally be right. It's all up to me. And, until I say otherwise, anything is possible.

The people who said "furry" would be right in that scenario though, FYI.


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Reread my post and show where exactly I mentioned Konohamaru actually fighting Pain! Also I simply mentioned Danzou posessing the Sharingan being more believable than him having 11 of them, but hey since when did you understand my posts anyway?
Btw, Konohamaru has been shown knowing Kage Bunshin (which IS high level) about three years ago. And he's about the same age, Naruto was when he learned Rasengan...
Reread my post and you'll see that I'm the one who mentioned him fighting pain and Danzo having an arm full of sharigan eyeballs. You responded to my post regarding those things. All you're stating here is that you responded with a counter-argument that had nothing to do with the argument I presented. So uh, thanks for pointing out that your own counter-argument was useless and admitting that you're just rambling about shit that wasn't even brought up.

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Your point doesn't matter because the whole technique is fanservice.
It's canon. It happened in the manga. You can't just ignore it. MGS4 had Big Boss randomly pop up in the ending and be all badass, pretty much just for fanservice too. It still fucking happened in the story though. You can't just cover your eyes, jam your fingers in your ears, go "LALALALALA doesn't count," and expect that to pass as a valid counter-argument. Unless, of course, you're a total retard who couldn't suck more at debating if you tried.
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The plot might endure it, but I doubt the audience will. Turning the main protagonist (=role model) gay in a manga aimed at teenage boys sounds quite risky for me.
So? Qui audet adipiscitur.
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Old 02-03-2010, 03:27 PM   #594
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Re: Naruto's Homosexuality

One thing on the subject of the Sexy Jutsu:

Go back and watch some of the old Looney Tunes. Especially Bugs Bunny. Notice how often he uses the drag to get a drop on whatever dumbass is his adversary in a particular cartoon, then notice how he is clearly doing it for self-amusement and self-advancement. Bugs Bunny is straighter than straight. Naruto is emulating that slapstick-esque kinda thing with the Sexy jutsu. He's not using it because he LIKES turning on guys, he uses it because he always, always, ALWAYS gets a reaction out of it.

What I mean by Miburo refusing to interpret evidence any way except the one that supports his argument:

Take, for example, the subject of WHY Naruto is trying to save Sasuke. At no point, I repeat at no point, does the manga ever make it seem at all like he's been doing so for himself. He's been doing it for Sakura and Sasuke's sake. Yet Miburo insists that Naruto must have had selfish reasons for doing so despite there being no evidence to support this. He only suggests this because it fits into his argument that Naruto is gay. He's completely ignoring the actual personality of the character to try to argue something ABOUT THE PERSONALITY OF THAT CHARACTER.
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Old 02-03-2010, 03:49 PM   #595
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Re: Naruto's Homosexuality

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Originally Posted by SenninKorby View Post
One thing on the subject of the Sexy Jutsu:

Go back and watch some of the old Looney Tunes. Especially Bugs Bunny. Notice how often he uses the drag to get a drop on whatever dumbass is his adversary in a particular cartoon, then notice how he is clearly doing it for self-amusement and self-advancement. Bugs Bunny is straighter than straight. Naruto is emulating that slapstick-esque kinda thing with the Sexy jutsu. He's not using it because he LIKES turning on guys, he uses it because he always, always, ALWAYS gets a reaction out of it.
So you, as a heterosexual male, would use a technique that sexually arouses men so you can get some sort of reaction out of them? That reaction usually consisting of them getting the animu equivalent of a raging hard-on, of course.

Edit: And I dunno if using Bugs Bunny as a model for a 'definitely straight' cartoon character is the best of tactics either...
Quote:
What I mean by Miburo refusing to interpret evidence any way except the one that supports his argument:

Take, for example, the subject of WHY Naruto is trying to save Sasuke. At no point, I repeat at no point, does the manga ever make it seem at all like he's been doing so for himself. He's been doing it for Sakura and Sasuke's sake. Yet Miburo insists that Naruto must have had selfish reasons for doing so despite there being no evidence to support this. He only suggests this because it fits into his argument that Naruto is gay. He's completely ignoring the actual personality of the character to try to argue something ABOUT THE PERSONALITY OF THAT CHARACTER.
Actually, I'm just using logic there, and it really has nothing to do with Naruto's sexual orientation either. It's not something Sasuke wants Naruto to do. He wasn't kidnapped, he left of his own free will. Pretty much told Naruto to fuck off, etc. Naruto wants to 'rescue' Sasuke. Otherwise he wouldn't be trying to do it. I'm just applying the concept of psychological egoism to the situation, that's all. That doesn't mean I'm refusing to interpret evidence in any other way other than that which supports my argument. If I was, I'd just agree with you and say he's doing it all for Sasuke's sake. Because I could argue that if you love someone unconditionally, you'd go to great lengths to do what's best for them, despite your own feelings. You'd be completely selfless when it comes to their well-being. So if I was trying to say Naruto is totally gay for Sasuke then I could just agree with you and use your own logic against you, so you'd have absolutely nothing to cry about.

So...yeah. Kinda stupid on your part. "Kinda" being a huge understatement, of course.
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Old 02-03-2010, 04:16 PM   #596
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Re: Naruto's Homosexuality

Still nothing but a big load of insults and unfounded claims.

I'm disappointed. I expected a little more from a moderator than just claiming equal chances because we don't know how the chances really are.
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Old 02-03-2010, 04:29 PM   #597
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Re: Naruto's Homosexuality

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Still nothing but a big load of insults and unfounded claims.

I'm disappointed. I expected a little more from a moderator than just claiming equal chances because we don't know how the chances really are.
Haha.

Protip: Calling your arguments (or you) stupid after I provide counter-arguments to your arguments isn't a logical fallacy. At worst, it's just kinda mean. And it wouldn't count as "nothing but a big load of insults" unless you completely ignore the meat of my posts.

And it makes you look a lot less stupid if you actually show how my claims are 'unfounded' instead of just hypocritically saying they're unfounded...without providing any basis to back that claim up...

I'd say I'm disappointed too, except I pretty much expected you to fail over and over, fold, and then act like a huge crybaby afterward.
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Old 02-03-2010, 04:34 PM   #598
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Re: Naruto's Homosexuality

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Originally Posted by Miburo View Post
Haha.

Protip: Calling your arguments (or you) stupid after I provide counter-arguments to your arguments isn't a logical fallacy. At worst, it's just kinda mean. And it wouldn't count as "nothing but a big load of insults" unless you completely ignore the meat of my posts.

And it makes you look a lot less stupid if you actually show how my claims are 'unfounded' instead of just hypocritically saying they're unfounded...without providing any basis to back that claim up...

I'd say I'm disappointed too, except I pretty much expected you to fail over and over, fold, and then act like a huge crybaby afterward.
For one, you've been claiming victory for the past 2 pages despite the fact that the opposition has been posting completely valid evidence the whole time, you've just been dismissing it because it disagrees with you. Unfounded claims at their best, I'd say.
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Old 02-03-2010, 04:48 PM   #599
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Re: Naruto's Homosexuality

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Originally Posted by SenninKorby View Post
For one, you've been claiming victory for the past 2 pages despite the fact that the opposition has been posting completely valid evidence the whole time, you've just been dismissing it because it disagrees with you. Unfounded claims at their best, I'd say.
Saying "the opposition has been posting completely valid evidence the whole time, you've just been dismissing it because it disagrees with you" certainly is an example of unfounded claims at their best, I must say.

Unless you can quote where I said something akin to "Sorry, I disagree, SO DISMISSED!" after all your "completely valid evidence." Have at it, champ.

Also, man up with your posts per pages.

And let's get back on topic, shall we? No need to be sore losers about shit. If you want to make a "Miburo is a big mean jerk" thread in the spam zone to cry about me, then be my guest. I won't stop you. This thread, however, isn't the place to vent.
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Old 02-03-2010, 06:19 PM   #600
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Re: Naruto's Homosexuality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxon View Post
Then you have, by definition, lost. You wouldn't be arguing here if you had reached a satisfying overview. Since this is a manga, the choice of revelation when it comes to Naruto's sexuality is the decision of the author. This is from the thought process "Is Naruto gay; Y/N". This is a 50/50 decision. There is no "MOST LIKELY" option. Naruto is not real. Since you have admitted there is a possibility, the option is there, and therefore that thought process exists. End.
This is a fallacious argument. It matters not whether Naruto is real, a "most likely" logical probability can still be formed, just not using the same medium as if it were a real person that you are trying evaluate said probability on.

Here's our question,

'Which is more probable, Naruto being Homo, Hetero or Bi?'

(I'm limiting it to those sexualities for now).

We simplify this to:

'Which is more probable, Kishimoto choosing Naruto to be Homo, Hetero, or Bi?'

The ability to form a probability is there, because Kishimoto's decision is real and can be predicted. Keep reading;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miburo View Post
Why exactly would I have to do that? Like Jaxon already pointed out, Kishimoto can do whatever the fuck he wants. And it really doesn't have to make any sense at all to us. In regards to Naruto's sexual orientation, Kishimoto could make it whatever he wants for whatever reason he feels like, nonsensical or otherwise. There doesn't have to be any logic to what he does. No rationale.
If it doesn't make any sense that means he isn't using logic, which is fine. But when you form a probability, you use logic. If Kishimoto is dropping hints that Naruto's gay, even more so that he isn't straight, and let's also say that we know Kishimoto has lots of gay friends, then that means it is more logical to assume and create a probability of Kishimoto making him gay. And if Naruto turns out straight it means Kishimoto wasn't being logical and consistent with his character in the story, of which-like I said, is fine. However, it still doesn't change the fact that the chance of him choosing Homo over Hetero was more high based on what we had perceived and knew. All it shows is that Kishimoto is illogical. =/
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miburo View Post
You can't predict this shit.
Yes, you can.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miburo View Post
You can't base probabilities on what the author might do.
Yes, you can. lol. Actually, if you think about it, saying it is a 50/50 chance is basing a probability on what the author might do anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miburo View Post
Because he can do whatever the fuck he wants. If he wants Naruto to be gay, then Naruto is going to be gay regardless of anything else.
Not necessarily. It's not,

"If he wants him to be gay, he'll be gay", but rather,

"If he makes him gay, he'll be gay"

After all, not everyone is as awesome as you and always does what they want.

If God wanted you to die, you might die, then. Doesn't change the fact that based on what we have perceived, God is normally a nice "thing" who doesn't always do what he wants. Get it? It's more logical to assume that God wouldn't kill you then, based on what we have seen.

Here's another analogy,

Let's say you always see a guy run by your house every morning. He then normally stops at this point and takes a piss. But he doesn't always take a piss. Only majority of the time. You can then say that it is more logical to assume (based on the probability of him taking a piss at that spot), that he will take a piss again the next time you see him run by. It doesn't mean he will take a piss, he can do whatever the fuck he wants, right? It's his 50/50 percent choice, right? Just like Kishimoto can do whatever the fuck he wants. It still doesn't change the fact that you can form a logical probability on the chance of him doing it.

Also, I'm obviously not saying that it is more logical for Naruto to be gay or vice versa, just that it is possible for you to predict it based on a "more chance of happening" probability. You just need to right proofs for it. You can basically put a probability on anything, real or not.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Miburo View Post
You're still ignoring the point. The purpose of the technique is to sexually arouse men (It's called the Sexy/Harem technique and is only used on dudes, for fuck's sake. And almost always results in a guy getting a massive nosebleed, which is pretty much the animu equivalent of jizzing in your pants...).
Yeah, but the purpose of Naruto doing the technique is to gain attention. Even though the purpose of the technique itself, may be to turn on men. It's like the whole "end justifies the means" thing.

Sure, you're killing a whole bunch of people, but in the end, it's to save even more people.

If you think about it, he's transforming for a reason other than turning on men (attention or a distraction). Just like the "you" in my sentence above, is killing people for a reason other than exterminating the human race. Quite the opposite actually.

All I'm saying is, it's the meaning behind the action that really matters, rather than what the action itself apparently accomplishes.

Also, why would you ask if it is typical heterosexual behavior? Typical implies "in our real world" when, like you already stated, this is in fiction. You shouldn't judge typical heterosexual behavior in our world with Naruto's own.
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Last edited by Scientia; 02-03-2010 at 06:24 PM.
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