Joy21

Hey Folks, I was recently watching the earlier bleach episodes and had a thought. I think at the beginning when urahara made ichigo into a shinigami then he quickly got through some steps. But he never taught Ichigo "kidoh". Now we see every time Ichigo enters a battle scene he switches to Bankai as Zangetsu doesn't have particular shikai and he relies heavily on the Hollow form of his. Here, if the storyline permitted ichigo to learn kidoh who knows the battles could have been much more interesting to say the least. Some of you might say that his bankai +hollow form is way more powerful so he doesn't need kidoh but "Heroes need to be perfect" don't they? Besides, switching straight to bankai and hollow form every time is kinda boring don't you think?

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J O Y

ask me anything

Yeah, his bankai has been over used to the point it's no longer "special" like it origianlly was, and his hollow form is becoming a common sight. Although him learning kido isn't the best choice. Ir really doesn't fit his fighting style, and any kido below #80 is crap anyway.

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The Special One

Ichigo needs a complete overhaul... His Bankai isn't even all that frightening. Sure, it gives him super speed, increases his physical strength, and allows a black Getsuga... But his Bankai feats are next to null considering most of his opponents are "at least" on par with Ichigo's Bankai to begin with (and that's not considering most of his opponents has some kind of release, or Zanpaktou upgrade that would completely outclass Ichigo in hollow form). Hell in order to fight, Ichigo has to use Bankai because his initial strengths are so low.

It seems for Ichigo to fight "near" Shikai level of Shunsui, Ichigo needs to use Bankai and hollow Mask... That's a shame since Ichigo has to go pretty much all out to reach just a fraction of a top Captain's ability. Again, Ichigo needs work all around. Bankai was supposed to be this special thing as Ichigo is forced to use it after some ground breaking action (or, after his opponent releases)... It wasn't something to just toss around. One of the reasons was because his body couldn't handle it (that was interesting, as it meant Ichigo would have to fight normally for a while before he would even think about using Bankai).

But now, Ichigo enters Bankai at the start of every fight (doesn't leave much for surprises anymore, or the awe factor). That's a shame and its even more of a shame that when Ichigo's in Bankai, he gets his ass kicked right away...

Ichigo's Bankai wouldn't look so lame if his Shikai was up and running most of the time. Ichigo needs to revert back to the way he was when he was facing Byakuya... He was sweet then because Kubo made the fight suspenseful (with Ichigo drawing out his Bankai because he was pressured by his opponent's Bankai)... Now, Kubo is making Byakuya look leagues better than Ichigo in combat just because Byakuya doesn't automatically rely on Bankai to start things off...

All I can say is that Ichigo needs to be more versed in his base form. His Bankai powers up his base stats. If his base stats are low to begin with, his Bankai would just make him a little bit more of an opponent, but that's it... Ichigo needs to be strong before Bankai... But at this point, Kishi screwed up Ichigo's strength development with what I stated above. I don't know how Kubo is going to fix it, as it's kind of late in the series. Ichigo's fighting ability is all messed up... The major problem is point one, his Shikai, or base form. I don't know how Kubo can make a mistake like that... I mean anyone could see how that would play out if not worked on.lol

I don't even think he needs Kido. He just needs his skills to be better... It's that simple folks...

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The Specialist, forever



^My first thread.lol

Joy21

I agree with you on most of the facts man. BUT THEN AGAIN.... Ichigo is said to be the captain level shinigami or i should say he proved to be one by beating the captains. Now if we see other captains they have Zampakhtou and hand to hand combat skills which we better know as kidoh. Here if ichigo is to maintain his stats as a captain he can't just rely on strength. I mean he can't just have a pill to increase it or a YAY big sacred sword (His sword is already big LOL). My point is here he needs to learn kidoh because he has been given a position of a captain although people regard him as a substitute. For a basic shinigami using just his zampakhtou to fight is understandable but the moment ur a fuku-taicho (Vice captain) or a Taicho (Captain) using just the strength or the sword is just lame. If he goes like this then GOD SAVE HIM AGAINST AIZEN

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J O Y

The Special One

Yeah that's why I'm saying its so late in the series that anything Kubo does would look rather forced (Final Hollow is the primary example). As for Kido, I don't know, he was never really that kind of shinigami... And it would take some time for him to learn whatever it is that he needs to learn, and I don't see how Ichigo can take more time off perfecting his skills while the threat of Aizen is still at large.

I think Ichigo just needs to be more versed in what he does (that looks impossible at this point, so we'll probably just see Ichigo master Final Hollow Form). Kenpachi doesn't use kido either, and he's not all that well rounded (not having an apparent Bankai)... But he's still a pretty decent captain. When you don't excel at everything, the things you do excel in needs to drastically make up for those short-comings. Can't use Bankai? His Shikai better be shit...

The writing for Ichigo's performance dropped dramatically since the earlier parts of Bleach. Going off what we can simply see, I have no idea how Ichigo won to Kenpachi in the first place.

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The Specialist, forever



^My first thread.lol

Dagoro

I again must defend Ichigo's Bankai lol.

The Anime beats that shit like a worker donkey, but canon wise he hasn't really abused it as some think he has.

He went from fighting Byakuya in the SS arc to doing battle with Espada, and strong fucking espada to boot.

GJ and Ulquiorra have way better battle feats than the majority of the other espada, barring Barragan and Stark. Noitra and Halicakes do have higher ranks but panel wise i wasn't impressed like i was with the ferocity of GJ and the overwhelming power of Ulquiorra.

Now, all the other captains pretty much got their asses kicked by the top 3 while going all out ( yes, some did not use Bankai but fuck, this shit about " Zomg, I don't want people to see my powerzz " is ridiculous ). Hacchi had to lose an arm to Kill Barragan and Aizen got bored and Killed the other 2.

So given the enemies the Goten captains can't afford to hold back because it will result in defeat ( which is what things were amounting to before the Vizard showed up ), and that includes Ichigo. The people he faced were not easy opponents, and why waste power while in Shikai when you can get more bang for your buck while in Bankai ??

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Now, as for Ichigo's abilities and training. Ichigo is similar to Kenpachi. Not on the badass factor but in the being nothing but a giant mass of reiatsu with legs sense. He has a ton of fuel but very little to spend it on. So he resorts to a handful of abilities.

Training would be nice...he can't even fire a cero while masked which would be very helpful given how much reiatsu he has.

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The Special One

I don't watch the anime though I still think Ichigo relies too much on Bankai for everything now. He went Bankai right after meeting Yammy (not 0 Epsada one.lol)... Just right out of the blue, Bankai... Urahara was taking it to Yammy with his Shikai...

I would think the top Espada (Stark) is stronger than the 4th and 6th seated ones... If not, then that makes no sense (I would like to see Ichigo hit with all those ceros and survive). Also, Tousen pwn Grimm by chopping his arm off with the quickness (something Ichigo has to go Bankai to do)... Kubo is all over the place again (since Tousen got done in so ridiculous like)... It's like there's no set standard for anything...

Ichigo is captain level, but in my opinion, he isn't on the level of Shunsui and Old Man Yama... That's why there's the Final Hollow I guess to make up for that... Sad...

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^My first thread.lol

Dagoro

Yami was in 10th espada form, and Ichigo was beating him easily while in Bankai until is hollow destabilized him. Also given what we know about Yammi now i doubt Yoruichi and Urahara would walk all over him at base.

Tousen cut GJ's arm because he was his superior, and GJ was in Aizen's presence which means GJ had to maintain a certain lvl of composure. Specially since he disobeyed orders and was in need of punishment.

Now for my comment on GJ and Ulquiorra having better feats than the majority of espada.

GJ pretty much proved to be a speed demon while using Pantera. Even masked Ichigo had problems following him, the guy was flying. His hand to hand abilities were great, not to mention his long range capabilities with spikes.

That to me was way more impressive than anything Noitra showed in his fight against Kenpachi. Noitra is just a tank, he doesn't have much speed or anything else for that matter. He was just like Kenpachi, a hack and slasher.

Given feats, i would put my money on GJ in a GJ vs Kenpachi scenario. And Ichigo for what I've seem would most likely be able to take out Noitra, he is faster and has dealt with enemies he couldn't cut at first.

Ulquiorra had a second lvl of resurrection. That alone puts him in a higher lvl of feats than most of the other espada. Sure he said that there were 3 other espada whom were stronger than him to Ichigo, but he also said that not even Aizen had seen his R2 form which means it was probably not factored in on ranking.

Ridiculous speed and strength, high speed regen, Cero Oscuras and Lanca del Relampago topples anything Halibel has done panel wise. Barragan and Stark remain more haxxed with aging powers and infinite cero Gatling gun.

Bottom line is, the goten captains got their asses kicked by the top 3, whom Ulquiorra and GJ rival when it comes to feats. Bankai is a must to fight these guys otherwise you die, so Ichigo is right by having Bankai active on every battle because all of his opponents are insanely strong.

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On the anime, Ichigo's Bankai is abused big time. That is what makes it cheap on peoples eyes. He needs it on every filler to battle fodder, so the boost he gains looks as if it isn't even there.

In the manga he used Bankai vs Byakuya, the effects definitely overwhelmed Byakuya for a while before Ichigo's own reiatsu caused his down fall, forcing his hollow to step in.

After that he fought with Yami whom he was beating, and then GJ and Ulquiorra which were two enemies that easily matched him speed because they are incredibly fast themselves.

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The Special One

Yes, Ichigo was using Bankai, that's the problem. In Yammy's rank 10 form, Ichigo was raping him in Bankai. Urahara was doing it just with his Shikai. Why does Ichigo have to pull out all of the stops just to accomplish what the renown shinigami can do at a fraction of their strength?

Tousen's Zanpaktou wasn't even in Shikai form, yet he was able to effortlessly cut Grimm's arm clean off. That would show how far Ichigo needs to come, considering his Bankai can barely to that much without his hollow mask...

Though Ulq said himself that the others were stronger than him. He never said based off Aizen's knowledge, there are three others stronger than him... And Ulq's second resurrection was based off rapid healing, more so than power, or anything else... I believe Stark was faster and could potentially destroy Ulq's organs with those cero wolves that cling onto targets...

Aizen killed her (she could of had more to her)... Why I don't know... She was more beneficial than Tousen in my opinion.

What about Ukitake (oh yeah, hand through chest from stupid idiot)... Shunsui offed Stark like he was some newb... Yes, the Captains in "general" [this doesn't count Old Man Yama either] did get messed up pretty bad however, when we see Shunsui fight with his regular Zanpaktou for a while then switch to his Shikai to heat things up shows how advanced his skills are. We haven't even seen the top 3, or 4 captains use Bankai, or even go serious...

Heck, even the squirt didn't go Bankai from the start... He fought Hailbel with while holding some of his power back, yet when things heated up, he switched to Bankai...

It's not interesting when Ichigo goes Bankai automatically. The fight isn't drawn out, and Ichigo doesn't look any better by buffing himself up to 100% (in the beginning) and getting smashed the next second (that's why I'm saying Ichigo isn't that developed)... The boss didn't even buff up to his max form yet... Ichigo has to be fighting at max just to barely tie with his opponent's initial form. There's no suspense either because Ichigo pulling out almost all of his tricks to start off. At least lead me to the climax...

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The Specialist, forever



^My first thread.lol

Dagoro

I don't understand the problem. Ichigo danced around Yammy effortlessly while in Bankai before his hollow got in the way. Why waste energy on Shikai when he can finish things off faster in Bankai ?

Using Bankai made total sense here. Urahara and Yoruichi were beating Yammy and so was Ichigo, so whats the big deal about him doing it in Bankai form when it was overkill ??

Had he struggled against Yammy while in Bankai this would be a problem but he wasn't.

Also lets get something straight here. None of the captains whom fought an espada did so in Base/shikai and got anywhere or won with the exception of flower dude and his mini game stark never heard of. Mayuri, Byakuya, Soifon, Toushiro and Kummamura all had to use Bankai when the shit hit the fan. Ichigo just goes full out from the beginning which makes sense since he fought 2 incredibly powerful espada.

Which of the goten Captains based on feats could have tangoed with GJ and Ulquiorra and won ??

Most of them would fail.

You said in your previous post that Tousen pwned GJ by cutting his arm off, my response was that GJ couldn't fight back because he was being punished by his superiors. He wanted to retaliate but Aizen intimidated him before he could do anything.

Besides, comparing Tousen with Ichigo is like comparing raw ore with a bar of gold. One has had years of training and has refined his abilities, the other is being thrust into the fray while trying to berserk through.

I explained that in from my pov Barragan and Stark have better feats than he does. Halibel quite frankly doesn't. Morciego alone allowed Ulquiorra to nearly blitz Ichigo and loop his head off, that is quite a feat considering what Ichigo's Bankai augments.

The Aizen comment makes sense. Think about it, the espada were ranked based on overall power/ability etc. Aizen had no idea that Ulquiorra had a second lvl to his resurrection, none of the other espada have displayed one. Just do the math.
I won't try and take away from Shunsui's skill as a captain, he is one of the oldest and strongest. But had Ukitake not stepped in he would have eaten a cero storm.

When he activated his Shikai the fight became some what one sided, not becuase the gap between he and stark was large in power but because his Shikai is freaking haxxed. Forcing the opponent to play a game he/she never played against a master with their own lives at stake....not really a fair scenario there, not that anything is supposed to be fair in war.

But Stark was able to fight him to the point where Ukitake had to step in and fry both love and the blond guy before he ended it with his weird Shikai.

Stark still manage to slice him the back during, newb he was not.

That was like being forced to play soccer against Ronaldinho when you never played with the threat of getting shot in the head if you happen to lose.
And accomplished nothing. He used his most powerful tech and didn't even scratch Halibel. So much for waiting to bust out his ace in the hole.
Again I ask, how many captains can actually beat GJ and Ulquiorra based on feats ?

I would love to see some of them take on those two with just Shikai, specially Ulquiorra whom deflected Urahara's berihime slash with 1 hand.

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The Special One

It's different because Ichigo needed Bankai, while the other two didn't. Why can't Ichigo be strong without automatically relying on his Bankai? Going off that implication, Urahara and Yoruichi (assuming Bankai= approximately 5-10x one's power) would slaughter Ichigo.

He uses it right before the match. How fun would it be if every good guy, or bad guy just went to the maximum form right off? I mean you can't really expect much surprises throughout the match. Thats why I like watching the captains fight over watching Ichigo fight. Fox man uses Bankai right out from the start as of lately though.

He was offed the moment Shunsui's Shikai effect kicked in. He was killed kind of effortlessly. And we have to take into account his Shikai doesn't work all the time. What if it just happened to work right after Stark released? And Ukitake told Shunsui not to use his Bankai. If Shunsui had done so, that would mean Stark could have looked even more pathetic.

Shunsui wasn't even fighting at full strength and that screaming kid distracted Shunsui as well, which allowed for Stark to shoot him in the back. They both played kind of dirty...

Yeah you're not getting what I'm saying.

Ichigo in Bankai used Getsuga, this hardly put a dent in Grimm's armor...

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/212/05/

Tousen's unreleased Zanpaktou cut off Grimm's arm... I'm talking about the strength of the attack this time, not the circumstances...

I'm going to requote what I said earlier about Ichigo's strength...

Yet he has to face Aizen... You'd think by this point in time he'd seem in a way capable of defeating Aizen... Not 100% of course, but it should look as though he's capable. In no way does it appear as though Ichigo is on par with the upper captains... That's really what it boils down to. HE's better than the average captain, but at the same time, probably no where near the upper ones, which really counts because Aizen is most certainly stronger than the upper captains..

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^My first thread.lol

Joy21

You are forgetting one very important thing dude (dagoro), that is none of the captains used kidoh. It was just bare sword play. Don't you think using kidoh could have led us into a more interesting scenario.

I am not against Ichigo using Bankai people but if you see every captain uses bankai at some point but NOT AT THE BEGINNING OF A BATTLE. Here Ichigo going Bankai prior to every fight it becomes a common scene isn't it ? If you compare Ichigo's strength with other captains he has the hollow form thats what sets him apart. Otherwise he's very ordinary. Teaching him kidoh could have closed the gap.

Lots of them in fact. Starting with yama ji who has showed us the slash of his ruujin jakka. I don't think he needs pulling bankai out against any espada EXCEPT AIZEN since he has wide range of kidoh attacks up his sleeves.

Next on the list is sunshui. We see him hitting stark with the weird game of his of choosing colors. He didn't even say "BANKAI" so that was not his Bankai at all. If he can defeat stark he can defeat no. 4 or 6 with his eyes closed. No matter how many resurrection this ULQ guy has he'll be blown apart by the color game.

Sui fon purely because she has a zampakhtou which needs two strikes to kill. Plus she is the second squad captain. Second squad members have to have special skills in hand to hand combat to tackle criminals (which is kidoh btw)

Byakuya (He is totally cool headed guy). He blew zomari luroux like a fly. Though he used Bankai at the end he gave the poor guy a taste of heavyweight Binding spells.

Guys, You must agree to the fact that when we are discussing shinigami kidoh and Bankai are both skills. And when it comes to Ichigo he has one ace short in his deck of cards. The creator also realized that I think and thats why 2nd hollow came into the fray.

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J O Y

Dagoro

You still don't understand my point. Yammy didn't even touch Ichigo before his hollow messed him up. That = overkill. Meaning Ichigo in Bankai was a much greater force than needed to take out Yammy as he was. That in no way shape or form means that just because Yoruichi and Urahara didn't use Bankai ( Urahara used Shikai, Yoruichi said herself she should have used Shunko ) it doesn't mean they are eons away from Ichigo, since his Bankai was overkill against Yammy.

As for GJ and Ulq let me give an example from the manga.

When Ichigo fought Byakuya in the SS arc they both started at shikai, Ichigo kept up with him just fine even managed to beat Senbozakura's shikai ability with his own.

After that They both escalated to Bankai, and Ichigo managed to overwhelm Byakuya with his Bankai before his body failed him forcing the hollow to step in. Byakuya is arguably one of the better captains and Ichigo kept up pretty well for his first time with Bankai, and back then he couldn't even control his hollow. Ichigo knew nothing of Byakuya's abilities so he tested him out during their fight while keeping Bankai as his ace.

GJ and Ulquiorra were different situations, he ran into both of them before on earth and lost. He knew how powerful they were so he didn't beat around the bush with Shikai.
You're arguing from semantics, I'm arguing from the manga pov.

Byakuya vs Zommari

They knew nothing about each other, so they started at base escalating to resurrection and Bankai.

Same goes for Mayuri vs Szayel.

Ichigo on the other had already ran into GJ and Ulquiorra. He knew what he was up against.

Do you think Ichigo would waste time in a fight against Byakuya now when he knows what Byakuya is capable of ? Probably not.

He knows he has the speed advantage in Bankai, so logically he would bust it out immediately forcing Byakuya into his own Bankai.
My point is that Stark didn't lose because Shunsui is way more powerful than he was, he lost because Shunsui's abilities make it incredibly difficult to fight back. Stark was doing just fine, he set both love and Rojuro on fire before Shunshui stepped in and sprung his crazy Shikai on him.

Based on feats Stark can handle physical abilities from a Zanpaktou just fine, but Shunsui has a very confusing haxx. That is why he lost.
And you employed selective reading upon my post to try and bend thing to your side.

I'll quote myself as well.
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This i agree with, except with one tiny snag. While conscious.

When his Hollow takes over into resurrection........i have my doubts, I'm talking about power not control.


Soifon used Kido against a fraccion, which he proceeded to break with a cero. What is the point of Kidou if the opponent can simply muscle through it ?

Unless you happen to be Hacchi, none of the captains except for Aizen have shown anything even close to that lvl of Kudou prowess, which is understandable since Hacchi specializes on Kidou and they don't.

I hope this is a joke. I have no doubt that Yama can handle either one based on the hype around him but based on feats:

Shunsui: For what he has shown now, Ulquiorra would destroy him. He made bankai/hollowed Ichigo look like a snail on the speed department, and superficial damage like the kind Shunsui inflicted on Stark is nothing to him. Ulquiorra died because Ichigo while in resurrection destroyed all of the organs below his chest line, which he cannot regenerate.

Shunsui as we know him now can't kill Ulquiorra based on feats.

Soifon: Both GJ and Ulq would destroy her. GJ overwhelmed Bankai/hollowed Ichigo in the speed and power department at times. His hand to hand skills are incredibly developed since he has no blade while resurrected, and he has long rage capabilities. Soifon's bankai could kill GJ but based on feats he has the edge on her as an opponent.

Ulq would vaporize Soifon, its not even funny. He has way better speed feats, his cero is ridiculous and lanca del relanpago can be fired multiple times while Soifon's missile has been shown to have a very strict limit.

Byakuya: He would also lose to both. GJ and Ulq have the speed advantage based on feats. So good luck catching them with Senbozakura Kageyoshi. Kidou is all he has besides that. Its pretty self explanatory.

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The Special One

I thought they were pretty outclassing him too. Yammy didn’t touch Urahara either… It would just appear that they’d be pretty devastating in Bankai considering how they easily picked him apart, not so much unlike how Ichigo done Yammy…

Maybe we just see Ichigo lose too much while dipping into his Bankai… I kind of wish it was implied that he’d lose even in his Bankai than for his opponents to defeat him in his Bankai. Make like he’d train to get his stats better, then unleash Bankai when he faces his opponents in their next meetings... It just looks discrediting to Ichigo’s strength when he losses with every fiber while his opponents are still conserving their strengths however, we see Kenpachi (someone Ichigo defeated before) defeat the 5th seat out right.

Going on that logic Aizen is more than partially as devastating as he is, is because of his Shikai’s ability… I would agree with this but in this case, the stronger the hax, the stronger the opponent… And if we assumed Shunsui could have been several folds more devastating than he was (by activating Bankai), Stark really might have looked outclassed…

You have Ichigo learning his Zanpaktou’s name and the ascension to Bankai not much later. Thing here is that why is the gap so large at this point? He followed none of the typical guidelines before. Not saying he should be insanely strong for no reason, but his level should be higher to the point in which we’d expect him to win “some” fights. His last fight seemed quite questionable considering all that had to happen for him to win. At this point it looks unreasonable to think Ichigo can win against Aizen…

But can’t Aizen Hollowly like Tousen, considering he would have granted himself the same power? If that’s the case, Ichigo’s new crazed mode would be countered… Unless Aizen didn’t do that stuff to himself… But I’m unsure of that…

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The Specialist, forever



^My first thread.lol

Joy21

[QUOTE=But can’t Aizen Hollowly like Tousen, considering he would have granted himself the same power? If that’s the case, Ichigo’s new crazed mode would be countered… Unless Aizen didn’t do that stuff to himself… But I’m unsure of that…[/QUOTE]

Exactly, if we assume Ichigo is powerful with the bankai and hollow at his disposal then Aizen is twice or even more powerful with his shikai alone. So if he activates Bankai of Kyoka suigetsu and his Vizard form (Aizen is not foolish to ignore that power for himself) then Ichigo will be a kid even with the second hollow form of his 'cuz its unstable and Aizen himself said to Ichigo "You should have combined Hollofication with the bankai of yours" which was 1st level that time that makes Aizen invulnerable against Hollow+bankai attacks. ICHIGO NEEDS SOME SERIOUS UPGRADING JOB TO BE DONE. I am not saying it has to be kidoh but it never hurts to learn extra trick or two does it?

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J O Y