Sage Mode phasing out? - Page 10

Dagoro · 04-22-2010, 02:14 AM

Naruto gathering NE and molding on the go will never work. He tried and failed, the clone method was created to compensate for his inability to fuse with Fukasaku and Shima.

The only way for Naruto to increase the time of each SM charge, is to increase the amount of chakra he can convert with each charge.

Jiraya had the luxury of never having to recharge due to the frogs standing still and gathering NE and molding instead of him, so he could continue to battle in HM for as long as he had the necessary energy to keep converting his chakra.

Naruto's way of increasing his SM time limit, is to convert as much chakra in one go therefore cutting the amount of recharges needed.

Right now he has 3 charges, one initial and 2 in reserve. Each last about 5 minutes without using RS. If he converts more of his chakra in one go, causing 1 charge to last say 7 minutes, that would eliminate 1 recharge clone giving him more battle time with SM and only the need to recharge once.

That is how Naruto increases his limit. The 3 charges/5 minutes limit he currently has are circumstantial to his lack of training. He did have to battle Nagato and the paths without completing his training. ( this is current Naruto with his base chakra, don't start with Kyubi this...older that since I'm taking it into account )

Quote:

SM Naruto could last in Sage mode for about 1 to 2 chapters.
J-man was in sage mode for like 5-6 chapters.

Shinobi battles last only a few minutes, there was a comment on it at the very beginning of the manga. Panel count and time span rarely correlate.

ACt · 04-23-2010, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konnaha_yellow_flash

Dude, who exactly was not getting this???

I've read most of this in the past few minutes and I'm not sure who isn't getting it, but I have a definite hankering for ice cream now. Blizzards anyone? If you add mint, you'll feel stronger.

dheepan · 04-23-2010, 02:34 PM

lol. I hate how no one can admit they are wrong in an internet argument. Especially when it seems fairly obvious from the manga...

Anyways, it's too bad this very interesting topic got sidetracked.
First post woo

I agree with those that disagree with the Sage mode being phased out.

It would seem like very poor story telling to introduce a concept just for the sake of a temporary power-up to defeat pain. A parallel could be drawn towards Goku's kaioken technique, which was totally abandoned after he achieved SS. However, unlike Dragonball, Naruto has an overarching story line. This leads me to believe that Kishi is a pretty good writer and doesn't put things into place on accident.

I think my main point of contention with Sage mode being discarded is that it has too much worth as a thematic element for it to be an incidental weapon in Naruto's arsenal.

1. It's easy to see a lot of Eastern Philosophy that is behind this technique. For example Daoists believe in a sort of cosmic energy of all things, similar is Shintoism with it's ideas of Kami's in all matter. Understanding this oneness of all things is also a key component of Zen Buddhism practiced in Japan. Sage mode requires one to be at perfect harmony with the environment, showing that Naruto perfected Sage mode indicates that he is an enlightened
being. Hinting at his destiny to become the one that heals the Ninja World.

2. This essential spiritual/natural part of SM is a perfect foil to Sasuke. Sasuke is consumed by hate, one that has destroyed his character and integrity.

3. Kishi has had a running theme of the changing of the guard, that the young will surpass the elders. SM is a vestige of J-Man and shows that pupil-student relationship. For example, when Naruto defeated the last Pain, he didn't use FRS he used a regular (albeit double) Rasengan the technique he learned from his master, the one who was killed by Pain.

I think if anything Naruto will use Sage mode to overcome the malevolent and evil entity of the Kyuubi and use that power for his own devices. If anything, the Kyuubi is consumed by hate much like Sasuke, Naruto as the one to end the chain of hatred will start with the Kyuubi.

AOTKorby · 04-23-2010, 03:37 PM

Oh My God, a new guy who makes a half decent first post. This is so startling. We haven't gotten any of those for a while.

batonnoir · 04-25-2010, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dagoro

Naruto gathering NE and molding on the go will never work. He tried and failed, the clone method was created to compensate for his inability to fuse with Fukasaku and Shima.

The only way for Naruto to increase the time of each SM charge, is to increase the amount of chakra he can convert with each charge.

Jiraya had the luxury of never having to recharge due to the frogs standing still and gathering NE and molding instead of him, so he could continue to battle in HM for as long as he had the necessary energy to keep converting his chakra.

Naruto's way of increasing his SM time limit, is to convert as much chakra in one go therefore cutting the amount of recharges needed.

Right now he has 3 charges, one initial and 2 in reserve. Each last about 5 minutes without using RS. If he converts more of his chakra in one go, causing 1 charge to last say 7 minutes, that would eliminate 1 recharge clone giving him more battle time with SM and only the need to recharge once.

That is how Naruto increases his limit. The 3 charges/5 minutes limit he currently has are circumstantial to his lack of training. He did have to battle Nagato and the paths without completing his training. ( this is current Naruto with his base chakra, don't start with Kyubi this...older that since I'm taking it into account )

Shinobi battles last only a few minutes, there was a comment on it at the very beginning of the manga. Panel count and time span rarely correlate.

Allow me to re-post in answer to this lack of faith in Naruto's resolve...

Quote:

Naruto will learn to gather NE while moving.

I believe this technique was Jiraiya's solution to gathering NE while moving. It had the drawback of preventing him from using his hands to perform jutsus, so he learned to use his feet in place of hand signs. This technique also took much longer to gather NE since it was only being drawn in through his "motionless" hands.

It is apparent that Fukasaku never saw Jiraiya do this technique since he believed it was impossible to gather NE while moving. Keep in mind that Jiraiya would go for years without visiting the Toads as evedenced by the fact that Fukusaku didn't know about Nagato (He probably knew about Naruto because he signed the contract)

Finally, during Naruto's training when he was trying to absord NE while moving, he appeared to be progressing the same as when he first learned to absorb NE. Compare not moving to while moving. He clearly was gathering NE. The only thing that stopped him from perfecting the technique was that Fukasaku couldn't keep up. Naruto was then inspired to develope and alternate way to gather NE while moving by using clones.

HOW DARE YOU DOUBT THE CHILD OF DESTINY!

liondemon · 04-25-2010, 03:44 AM

I think Jiraya was just gathering the high amount of chakra possibly needed to summon the 2 toads and not gathering NE while running.

But your other link where Naruto is running and gathering NE does show that he may have the potential to do it, but I would think that to continue training to balance it while running would be too dangerous to try without the old Toad and his stick, meaning if Naurto doesnt do more training at Toad Mountain, he might not ever get to that point

stubborn_d0nkey · 04-25-2010, 05:14 AM

The question for me, concerning gathering NE and moving, is if the stick is what causes him to revert to the normal state, or if it's a technique of pa's, or both.

Anyway, If Naruto could learn how to revert himself (a clone reverts another clone/original) then he could make as many clones as when training for wind, and some of the clones would be in charge for reverting the others back into normal state. Actually, I'm not sure if he would be able to make that many clones (chakra restrictions), but anyways if he learned how to do it he could practice alone and I bet he could use more clones.

Dagoro · 04-26-2010, 04:22 AM

@Bato

Your reasoning makes absolutely no sense.

Quote:

I believe this technique was Jiraiya's solution to gathering NE while moving. It had the drawback of preventing him from using his hands to perform jutsus, so he learned to use his feet in place of hand signs. This technique also took much longer to gather NE since it was only being drawn in through his "motionless" hands.

Wth is this ?

Unless you happens to be devoid of any literary sense, Jiraya clearly says that hes summoning Fukasaku and Shima, and needs Gamaken to buy him some time to do it. How you turn something that simple into that pile of nonsense is beyond me.

Quote:

It is apparent that Fukasaku never saw Jiraiya do this technique since he believed it was impossible to gather NE while moving. Keep in mind that Jiraiya would go for years without visiting the Toads as evedenced by the fact that Fukusaku didn't know about Nagato (He probably knew about Naruto because he signed the contract)

This is just the sad overreach you used to try and validate that crap you initially said. Fukasaku was very aware of Jiraya's limitation when it came to gathering and molding NE. He used for comparison when he was training Naruto.

Quote:

Finally, during Naruto's training when he was trying to absord NE while moving, he appeared to be progressing the same as when he first learned to absorb NE. Compare not moving to while moving. He clearly was gathering NE. The only thing that stopped him from perfecting the technique was that Fukasaku couldn't keep up. Naruto was then inspired to develope and alternate way to gather NE while moving by using clones.

Your comparison works in 1 aspect of that scene when compared to his training with the oil. Any movement will cause the process to unbalance and initiate petrification. However, what you failed to take into account is that Naruto was never shown on panel going from base, into what appears to be SM and then becoming unbalanced due to the moving around.

One could speculate that he was perfectly still, begun absorbing NE and than took off running in order to attempt to finish the process while moving. Even though this hypothesis also has no panel support, it makes a lot more sense than you think happened because the manga clearly gives specifics when it comes to gathering NE and going into SM.

The person using must stay still, there is no way around it. The many failures Naruto had with the oil training prove it without a shadow of a doubt. There is no way to gather and mold NE while moving.

Quote:

HOW DARE YOU DOUBT THE CHILD OF DESTINY!

-_-...

L2manga maybe ?

Naruto is about to gain full control of the Kyubi's chakra, do you really think Kishi will go back and step all over what he already set in stone and magically give Naruto the ability to gather NE on the run ??

Please, that is nothing more than wishful fanthinking.

batonnoir · 04-26-2010, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dagoro

@Bato

Your reasoning makes absolutely no sense.

Wth is this ?

Unless you happens to be devoid of any literary sense, Jiraya clearly says that hes summoning Fukasaku and Shima, and needs Gamaken to buy him some time to do it. How you turn something that simple into that pile of nonsense is beyond me.

Forgive me if I'm just being full of myself, but I base what I said on what I see as much as what I read. In other words...what makes sense to me.

First of all...this is not DBZ.

You are suggesting that the Legendary Jiraiya...fresh as a daisy at the start of a battle, has to gather chakra in order to summon little ass Fukasaku and Shima. Granted they are powerful but Jiraiya can summon the "Boss" at the drop of a hat...so it makes no sense.

Or how about this...he could just summon a little messenger frog to get F&S, instead of running around like a cockroach.

Finally, the chakra summoning "theory" suggests that F&S arrived pre-filled with NE. This is a married couple. They were at home bitching at each other, not meditating or waiting for Jiraiya's summons.

Quote:

This is just the sad overreach you used to try and validate that crap you initially said. Fukasaku was very aware of Jiraya's limitation when it came to gathering and molding NE. He used for comparison when he was training Naruto.

Sad...Ouch! No, it's not sad. In fact, it's an obvious conclusion based on my belief that Jiraiya was actually gathering NE.

If he is gathering NE, then Fukasaku was wrong...it's as simple as that.

Quote:

Your comparison works in 1 aspect of that scene when compared to his training with the oil. Any movement will cause the process to unbalance and initiate petrification. However, what you failed to take into account is that Naruto was never shown on panel going from base, into what appears to be SM and then becoming unbalanced due to the moving around.

One could speculate that he was perfectly still, begun absorbing NE and than took off running in order to attempt to finish the process while moving. Even though this hypothesis also has no panel support, it makes a lot more sense than you think happened because the manga clearly gives specifics when it comes to gathering NE and going into SM.

You can speculate all you want...I'm just saying that according to the panels in the manga. Naruto's training to absorb NE while moving was progressing EXACTLY the same way as for standing still. Don't get mad at me...look at the manga.

For the sake of plot, Naruto needed to temporarily abandon his training to gather NE while moving, in favor of his clone solution,otherwise

1)He wouldn't have completed the training in time to face Pain. He would have had his initial Sage Mode charge and after that, his ass would have been bagged and tagged. Or
2)He would have completed the training,beat the crap out of Pain, The dead people would have stayed dead and we probably would have suffered through a second Pain invasion later...or Nagato Attacks.

Quote:

The person using must stay still, there is no way around it. The many failures Naruto had with the oil training prove it without a shadow of a doubt. There is no way to gather and mold NE while moving.

To answer your last comment...I will simply use two pages from the manga.

Impossible.jpg
Tsunade also once doubted Naruto

Faith.jpg
Do you know what Jiraiya and Sarutobi and Chiyo and Batonnoir of Florida
had that Dagoro don't!?
Faith!!

Quote:

-_-...

L2manga maybe ?

Naruto is about to gain full control of the Kyubi's chakra, do you really think Kishi will go back and step all over what he already set in stone and magically give Naruto the ability to gather NE on the run ??

Please, that is nothing more than wishful fanthinking.

If it were set in stone, you'ld be right...but it's not set in stone, it's simply on the back-burner...simmering...mmmmmm good.

stubborn_d0nkey · 04-26-2010, 01:52 PM

Did you notice that J-man wasn't in Hermit Mode for a long time? And we only saw him in HM after he summoned Pa and Ma. You could look at it in many ways, and most, if not all wouldn't support you at all. What about this scenario? When Jiraiya summons them, he summons them directly to his shoulders. And to do so he has to at least start collecting NE, which is why he had his hands together the whole time(he already drew blood). He was waiting for an opportunity to not move. However he couldn't find it so he had to hide somewhere. Notice how, when they are summoned Ma says: "Brat! why do you always summon us at places like this!!" Those type of places are ideal for gathering NE, which supports this scenario. Which is one of many that is more likely than your "Jiraiya can gather while moving" bit.

Dagoro · 04-26-2010, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Forgive me if I'm just being full of myself, but I base what I said on what I see as much as what I read. In other words...what makes sense to me.

First of all...this is not DBZ.

You are suggesting that the Legendary Jiraiya...fresh as a daisy at the start of a battle, has to gather chakra in order to summon little ass Fukasaku and Shima. Granted they are powerful but Jiraiya can summon the "Boss" at the drop of a hat...so it makes no sense.

Or how about this...he could just summon a little messenger frog to get F&S, instead of running around like a cockroach.

Finally, the chakra summoning "theory" suggests that F&S arrived pre-filled with NE. This is a married couple. They were at home bitching at each other, not meditating or waiting for Jiraiya's summons.

Little ass frogs ?

Fukasaku and Shima are the two fully fledged sages. You know even less than you initially let up.

Quote:

You can speculate all you want...I'm just saying that according to the panels in the manga. Naruto's training to absorb NE while moving was progressing EXACTLY the same way as for standing still. Don't get mad at me...look at the manga.

No shit Sherlock. During the oil training NE entered Naruto's body by no efforts of his own, all he had to practice was balancing it and molding it. But due to him being a novice it quickly unbalanced and initiated petrification. This is similar to it, with the exception that Naruto knows how to remain perfectly still and absorb NE without the aid of the oil.

As for your " look at the manga " argument, I am. Before Naruto started turning he already had the dark pigment around his eyes, which one can speculate upon as him previously having gathered some NE and then tried to mold it on the go.

You claim he was making progress, which is laughable. Progress would have been him going from base to NE and signs of SM on the go, but there is no panel of that. Call it a quirk by Kishi since those aren't unheard of, but the bottom line is that it failed. The parameters of SM explain why it failed and won't work and the clone method is the way Naruto came up with the make up for the fact that Fukasaku and Shima could not compensate for it in his behalf.

Quote:

For the sake of plot, Naruto needed to temporarily abandon his training to gather NE while moving, in favor of his clone solution,otherwise

L2plot device, Naruto's lack of time and desperation led to the brilliance of the clone method.

Quote:

1)He wouldn't have completed the training in time to face Pain. He would have had his initial Sage Mode charge and after that, his ass would have been bagged and tagged. Or

Naruto didn't finish his training. He was still getting used to SM and how much it last. Why do you think he wanted to increase his time with later ?

Quote:

2)He would have completed the training,beat the crap out of Pain, The dead people would have stayed dead and we probably would have suffered through a second Pain invasion later...or Nagato Attacks.

Lol Wut ? L2scrip.

Quote:

Sad...Ouch! No, it's not sad. In fact, it's an obvious conclusion based on my belief that Jiraiya was actually gathering NE.

If he is gathering NE, then Fukasaku was wrong...it's as simple as that.

Your belief is ridiculous and has 0 manga back up. Moving on.

Quote:

To answer your last comment...I will simply use two pages from the manga.

Attachment 2075
Tsunade also once doubted Naruto

Attachment 2076
Do you know what Jiraiya and Sarutobi and Chiyo and Batonnoir of Florida
had that Dagoro don't!?
Faith!!

Quote:

If it were set in stone, you'ld be right...but it's not set in stone, it's simply on the back-burner...simmering...mmmmmm good.

FF net is that way =====>

Only the die hard Naruto fantards expect Kishi to come up with some magic way to have Naruto enter SM while moving, thus stepping all over what he previously wrote.

Not to mention the fact that SM, while it won't disappear, has served its purpose and will now be overshadowed by Naruto's final and stronger power ups. L2story progression.

Duncan33 · 04-26-2010, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dagoro

LMAO, that never gets old!!

niblack89 · 04-27-2010, 12:44 AM

I dough Kish would just throw away sage mode. If sage mode's time limit is Naruto's chakra then the use of the kyuubi's chakra to gather natural energy would make an unlimited sage mode and should put the chakra that was taken by Minato in a way recovered. Also sage mode has pretty great perks. Sensing chakra, damage reduction, advanced chakra control, the katas is pretty useless.

Gakure · 04-27-2010, 06:11 AM

^WTF? katas useless, wut?

Naruto punches miss by miles and u still get hit?

Sparring god realm pain with his black rod barehanded in base mode. Which manga are reading?

freedom07 · 04-27-2010, 06:22 AM

sage mode has advantages over kyubii

1. you can sense things
2. you dont get your skin peeled off and damage your cells
3. you can still use jutsus instead of just chakra blasts

btw this is naruto we are talking about
the guy who used rasengan and kage bunshin so much in the first series that it made ppl sick
sage mode is definitely gonna get use more and more esp when naruto just tried to increase its time limit

04-23-2010, 02:34 PM	#138
dheepan Academy Student Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post	Re: Sage Mode phasing out? lol. I hate how no one can admit they are wrong in an internet argument. Especially when it seems fairly obvious from the manga... Anyways, it's too bad this very interesting topic got sidetracked. First post woo I agree with those that disagree with the Sage mode being phased out. It would seem like very poor story telling to introduce a concept just for the sake of a temporary power-up to defeat pain. A parallel could be drawn towards Goku's kaioken technique, which was totally abandoned after he achieved SS. However, unlike Dragonball, Naruto has an overarching story line. This leads me to believe that Kishi is a pretty good writer and doesn't put things into place on accident. I think my main point of contention with Sage mode being discarded is that it has too much worth as a thematic element for it to be an incidental weapon in Naruto's arsenal. 1. It's easy to see a lot of Eastern Philosophy that is behind this technique. For example Daoists believe in a sort of cosmic energy of all things, similar is Shintoism with it's ideas of Kami's in all matter. Understanding this oneness of all things is also a key component of Zen Buddhism practiced in Japan. Sage mode requires one to be at perfect harmony with the environment, showing that Naruto perfected Sage mode indicates that he is an enlightened being. Hinting at his destiny to become the one that heals the Ninja World. 2. This essential spiritual/natural part of SM is a perfect foil to Sasuke. Sasuke is consumed by hate, one that has destroyed his character and integrity. 3. Kishi has had a running theme of the changing of the guard, that the young will surpass the elders. SM is a vestige of J-Man and shows that pupil-student relationship. For example, when Naruto defeated the last Pain, he didn't use FRS he used a regular (albeit double) Rasengan the technique he learned from his master, the one who was killed by Pain. I think if anything Naruto will use Sage mode to overcome the malevolent and evil entity of the Kyuubi and use that power for his own devices. If anything, the Kyuubi is consumed by hate much like Sasuke, Naruto as the one to end the chain of hatred will start with the Kyuubi.

04-27-2010, 12:44 AM	#148
niblack89 Academy Student Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Sage Mode phasing out? I dough Kish would just throw away sage mode. If sage mode's time limit is Naruto's chakra then the use of the kyuubi's chakra to gather natural energy would make an unlimited sage mode and should put the chakra that was taken by Minato in a way recovered. Also sage mode has pretty great perks. Sensing chakra, damage reduction, advanced chakra control, the katas is pretty useless. __________________ The new generation will surpass the previous one

04-27-2010, 06:11 AM	#149
Gakure JESUS LOVES YOU Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: The New World Posts: 2,439 Thanks: 1,602 Thanked 962 Times in 552 Posts	Re: Sage Mode phasing out? ^WTF? katas useless, wut? Naruto punches miss by miles and u still get hit? Sparring god realm pain with his black rod barehanded in base mode. Which manga are reading? __________________ HELL IS REAL Audio Text More SALVATION PRAYER O Lord God, I come to You in the Name of Jesus Christ. Your Word says, "...whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Acts 2:21). I ask Jesus to come into my heart to be the Lord of my life. I receive eternal life into my spirit and according to Romans 10:9, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved," I declare that I am saved; I am born-again; I am a child of God! I now have Christ dwelling in me, and greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world (1 John 4:4)! I now walk in the consciousness of my new life in Christ Jesus. Hallelujah!" BEST DECISION EVER!!! Jesus Loves You!!! He Always Has. He Always WIll

04-27-2010, 06:22 AM	#150
freedom07 SASUKE'S TRUE #1 FAN!! Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: SASUKE Age: 25 Posts: 2,113 Thanks: 160 Thanked 733 Times in 390 Posts	Re: Sage Mode phasing out? sage mode has advantages over kyubii 1. you can sense things 2. you dont get your skin peeled off and damage your cells 3. you can still use jutsus instead of just chakra blasts btw this is naruto we are talking about the guy who used rasengan and kage bunshin so much in the first series that it made ppl sick sage mode is definitely gonna get use more and more esp when naruto just tried to increase its time limit Last edited by freedom07; 04-27-2010 at 06:24 AM.

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