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Old 05-13-2010, 09:37 PM   #166
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Re: Naruto and "Granny" Tsunade

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Originally Posted by SenninKorby View Post
But a Senju couldn't represent the idealogy of the Uchiha. The only Uchiha to be shown holding onto the Senju idealogy are Obito and Itachi. The former was an outcast and "runt" among the Uchiha, and the latter was a very strong pacifist. Orochimaru began with an attitude that was supportive of neither philosophy, but then he went batshit insane.

I don't know what you're trying to prove with the 2nd paragraph, since it basically proves my point right, but whatever.

The reason it's unlikely that Sarutobi, Minato, Danzo, Oro, Jiraiya, etc, are Senju is that the actual Senju, just as they spread the idea of the Will of Fire, did not discriminate against any. Hashirama did everything he could to make peace with the Uchiha, and left Konoha open to immigration and integration of other clans. Tobirama gave the Uchiha substantial power in the police force, and Kagami Uchiha was among those that he considered "worthy" of possibly being the Third Hokage. The Senju were not discriminatory at all, it was not until the political power of the Senju bloodline had died out that there was suspicion, distrust, and deception. And even then, Sarutobi tried everything he could to keep the Will of Fire alive, because he was the person who adhered to the philosophy of Hashirama the most of the people that could have been the Third Hokage, which is exactly why Tobirama picked him.
I never brought the Uchiha in this convo .. you did.. I was just trying to explain how someone of a non Senju bloodline could posses the will of fire as many want to throw the will of fire around to display Senju ideology..... the will of Fire is just that / a belief system and the Senju is a clan.. a family of people related by blood and marriage

Lets point out something in our own reality to back up my point.. our president assuming you're American) is Barack Obama.. an African American.. it had been proven that he is a distant cousin of Dick Cheney a Caucasian and our former vice president.. do they share the same last name... no.. do they share the same skin pigmentation.. no .. do they display the same abilities and disposition.. no .. but do they belong to the same bloodline YES!
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Old 05-13-2010, 09:53 PM   #167
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Re: Naruto and "Granny" Tsunade

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I never brought the Uchiha in this convo .. you did.. I was just trying to explain how someone of a non Senju bloodline could posses the will of fire as many want to throw the will of fire around to display Senju ideology..... the will of Fire is just that / a belief system and the Senju is a clan.. a family of people related by blood and marriage

Lets point out something in our own reality to back up my point.. our president assuming you're American) is Barack Obama.. an African American.. it had been proven that he is a distant cousin of Dick Cheney a Caucasian and our former vice president.. do they share the same last name... no.. do they share the same skin pigmentation.. no .. do they display the same abilities and disposition.. no .. but do they belong to the same bloodline YES!
I brought up Jiraiya and Oro because they had the same clash of ideologies despite Oro representing the Uchiha side without being an Uchiha, after you had said that Naruto is a Senju because Madara said that he represents the ideology of the Senju.

The Will of Fire was an idea brought to light by the Senju. But it is an idea that leaked to a great many residents of Konoha that had no Senju bloodline. I'm saying that Naruto, Sarutobi, Jiraiya, Minato, etc do not have to be of Senju blood to epitomize the idea of the Will of Fire.
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Old 05-13-2010, 10:55 PM   #168
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Re: Naruto and "Granny" Tsunade

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I brought up Jiraiya and Oro because they had the same clash of ideologies despite Oro representing the Uchiha side without being an Uchiha, after you had said that Naruto is a Senju because Madara said that he represents the ideology of the Senju.

The Will of Fire was an idea brought to light by the Senju. But it is an idea that leaked to a great many residents of Konoha that had no Senju bloodline. I'm saying that Naruto, Sarutobi, Jiraiya, Minato, etc do not have to be of Senju blood to epitomize the idea of the Will of Fire.
Hmm Maybe this is the problem.. I am in no way saying that Naruto is representing the Will of fire or the will of the Senju .... I'm saying that Naruto , Tsunade, Hashirama , Tobirama , Minato, J-man, Hiruzen and every other clan that is not labeled Uchiha that dwell in the village hidden in the leaves are SENJU! this is the argument I'm making.. I may be wrong in this belief.. but it is what my mind has deduced.. I fully understand that I may be a lone wolf in this matter but I thought it interesting enough to make a topic about it to see if any others might have came to the same conclusion
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Old 05-14-2010, 12:49 AM   #169
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Re: Naruto and "Granny" Tsunade

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Hmm Maybe this is the problem.. I am in no way saying that Naruto is representing the Will of fire or the will of the Senju .... I'm saying that Naruto , Tsunade, Hashirama , Tobirama , Minato, J-man, Hiruzen and every other clan that is not labeled Uchiha that dwell in the village hidden in the leaves are SENJU! this is the argument I'm making.. I may be wrong in this belief.. but it is what my mind has deduced.. I fully understand that I may be a lone wolf in this matter but I thought it interesting enough to make a topic about it to see if any others might have came to the same conclusion
I wouldn't disagree with you. The Senju are largely extinct, but their legacy lives within all the non-Uchiha Konoha shinobi. This is quite clear and manga-proven (e.g., when Shikamaru killed Hidan and became the heir of Asuma's Will of Fire).

I do agree however that Orochimaru was also largely of the Uchiha ideology, though his seemed to focus more on an enlightened evil, if that makes sense. For him it's about discovering the fabric of reality and learning all jutsus... for the Uchiha, it's hatred based on jealousy. Essentially, it's greed versus vanity. That's how I see it.
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Old 05-14-2010, 01:01 AM   #170
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Re: Naruto and "Granny" Tsunade

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Originally Posted by TheSixthHokage View Post
I wouldn't disagree with you. The Senju are largely extinct, but their legacy lives within all the non-Uchiha Konoha shinobi. This is quite clear and manga-proven (e.g., when Shikamaru killed Hidan and became the heir of Asuma's Will of Fire).

I do agree however that Orochimaru was also largely of the Uchiha ideology, though his seemed to focus more on an enlightened evil, if that makes sense. For him it's about discovering the fabric of reality and learning all jutsus... for the Uchiha, it's hatred based on jealousy. Essentially, it's greed versus vanity. That's how I see it.
i couldn't agree with you more.... and the enlightened evil makes sense to me

though some of the senju are still alive(as you stated by "largely extinct"). whether or not they are ninja or also just common citizens is beyond our knowledge until kishi says so lol. I got a feeling though naruto is very well a senju not just because "tobi" says he see's senju in him but because he is mastering senjutsu. maybe minato mastered it too, that could help prove he is in fact senju if it works that way. of course this is relating the mass amounts of chakra needed to master senjutsu.

.....maybe..... all those frog statues are where the senju went lol
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Old 05-14-2010, 01:07 AM   #171
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Smile Re: Naruto and "Granny" Tsunade

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I wouldn't disagree with you. The Senju are largely extinct, but their legacy lives within all the non-Uchiha Konoha shinobi. This is quite clear and manga-proven (e.g., when Shikamaru killed Hidan and became the heir of Asuma's Will of Fire).

I do agree however that Orochimaru was also largely of the Uchiha ideology, though his seemed to focus more on an enlightened evil, if that makes sense. For him it's about discovering the fabric of reality and learning all jutsus... for the Uchiha, it's hatred based on jealousy. Essentially, it's greed versus vanity. That's how I see it.
OK you guys aren't reading what I'm writing I believe that the members of Konaha who's last names aren't Uchiha are the Senju.. not their will of fire or none of that.. but ACTUAL SENJU.. just in the same way my last name is BANKS... but if you go back 2 generation the family last name is Brown on my grandmother side and Butler on my granddad side.. there were 9 children in their union so in effect the sprang off 9 different clans as all the females got married to males and only four boys could carry on my grandfather's last name.. even tho my last name is Banks( Nara, Aburame, etc.) I still belong to the Butler and Brown clans.. I really hope this lesson in genealogy clears my argument up.. I REPEAT I AM NOT REFERRING TO THE WILL OF FIRE BUT BELIEVE ALL PEOPLE OF KONOHA WHO LAST NAME IS NOT UCHIHA IS A MEMBER OF THE SENJU DYNASTY!
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Old 05-14-2010, 01:23 AM   #172
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Re: Naruto and "Granny" Tsunade

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OK you guys aren't reading what I'm writing I believe that the members of Konaha who's last names aren't Uchiha are the Senju.. not their will of fire or none of that.. but ACTUAL SENJU.. just in the same way my last name is BANKS... but if you go back 2 generation the family last name is Brown on my grandmother side and Butler on my granddad side.. there were 9 children in their union so in effect the sprang off 9 different clans as all the females got married to males and only four boys could carry on my grandfather's last name.. even tho my last name is Banks( Nara, Aburame, etc.) I still belong to the Butler and Brown clans.. I really hope this lesson in genealogy clears my argument up.. I REPEAT I AM NOT REFERRING TO THE WILL OF FIRE BUT BELIEVE ALL PEOPLE OF KONOHA WHO LAST NAME IS NOT UCHIHA IS A MEMBER OF THE SENJU DYNASTY!
oh i understood what you meant. i just dont believe everyone that isn't an uchiha is senju. there were multiple clans that formed to make konoha. wasn't just the two just like every other village. there are multiple clans that were formed together to create their villages. hence how some countries are bigger than others. was the size of the clans they took in to form their nation. aslo they fought for some of that land for their borders as well. but alot of clans joined up to form their nations
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Old 05-14-2010, 01:34 AM   #173
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Re: Naruto and "Granny" Tsunade

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oh i understood what you meant. i just dont believe everyone that isn't an uchiha is senju. there were multiple clans that formed to make konoha. wasn't just the two just like every other village. there are multiple clans that were formed together to create their villages. hence how some countries are bigger than others. was the size of the clans they took in to form their nation. aslo they fought for some of that land for their borders as well. but alot of clans joined up to form their nations
and over the hundred years or so don't you think all those Senju men and women had babies by all those other clans that they took in to form the village?
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Old 05-14-2010, 10:01 AM   #174
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Re: Naruto and "Granny" Tsunade

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and over the hundred years or so don't you think all those Senju men and women had babies by all those other clans that they took in to form the village?
if naruto was of the senju we would have known it by now.. the only connection besides the will of fire that naruto has is his large chakra supply the senju are pretty much extinct.. let me break it down to u like this when konoha was formed the dominant clans were the senju and the uchiha. but there were other clans such as the hyuuga the nara and the clans choji ino and shino are from.. not to mention kiba . so does that make them senju too? hell no.. if u read into narutos background narutos mother isnt even from konoha she is from the whirpool country.. and minato is namikaze not senju so please tell me where u get this whole arguement that naruto is senju.. yes i understand he follows their beliefs but that does not make him a senju
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Old 05-14-2010, 03:42 PM   #175
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Re: Naruto and "Granny" Tsunade

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Hmm Maybe this is the problem.. I am in no way saying that Naruto is representing the Will of fire or the will of the Senju .... I'm saying that Naruto , Tsunade, Hashirama , Tobirama , Minato, J-man, Hiruzen and every other clan that is not labeled Uchiha that dwell in the village hidden in the leaves are SENJU! this is the argument I'm making.. I may be wrong in this belief.. but it is what my mind has deduced.. I fully understand that I may be a lone wolf in this matter but I thought it interesting enough to make a topic about it to see if any others might have came to the same conclusion
This makes no sense whatsoever. Look at how many clans there are within Konoha. Most of them have been residing in the village for generations. There's no way that all of them could be descended from the Senju bloodline. Absolutely. No. Fucking. Way. Not to mention the fact that ninjas only have a 2:1 ratio at most compared to the civilians. You think that one of the "great war clans" would suddenly have THAT many non-ninjas within 3 or 4 generations?
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Old 05-14-2010, 03:52 PM   #176
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Re: Naruto and "Granny" Tsunade

senninkorby dont argue with him anymore because there is a saying that i like to follow when you argue with a non intelligent person you may be right but from a spectators point of view u cant tell who is the idiot because you let him bring you down to his level
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Old 05-14-2010, 03:53 PM   #177
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Re: Naruto and "Granny" Tsunade

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senninkorby dont argue with him anymore because there is a saying that i like to follow when you argue with a non intelligent person you may be right but from a spectators point of view u cant tell who is the idiot because you let him bring you down to his level
"Never argue with an idiot, they'll just pull you down to their level and beat you with experience."

That the saying you're talking about?
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Old 05-14-2010, 07:40 PM   #178
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Re: Naruto and "Granny" Tsunade

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This makes no sense whatsoever. Look at how many clans there are within Konoha. Most of them have been residing in the village for generations. There's no way that all of them could be descended from the Senju bloodline. Absolutely. No. Fucking. Way. Not to mention the fact that ninjas only have a 2:1 ratio at most compared to the civilians. You think that one of the "great war clans" would suddenly have THAT many non-ninjas within 3 or 4 generations?
And I know that all of the villagers arent senju. but mostof them would be.. we know of Hashirama and tobirama.. but I'm sure they had other siblings.. We know that Tsunade is a Senju because her Grandad is senju.. But how many children did the first and second have.. we don't know.. .. never mind I've already explained the logic in how large a familly can be and how people with different last names can be related.. heck i'm sure that you're familly has multiple "clans" scattered across the nation. there are some relatives you have that you'd be surprised at
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Old 05-14-2010, 07:44 PM   #179
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Re: Naruto and "Granny" Tsunade

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senninkorby dont argue with him anymore because there is a saying that i like to follow when you argue with a non intelligent person you may be right but from a spectators point of view u cant tell who is the idiot because you let him bring you down to his level
much in the same way that your inability to grasp a family's structure seems to be illogical.. how hard is it to be able to comprehend that there are aunt uncles cousins so on and so forth tht make up a familly and guess what.. they arent all going to have the same last name.. ... Just read the manga and if and when my theory is confirmed I'll save you a spot at the front of the line to give me my props
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Old 05-14-2010, 08:10 PM   #180
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Re: Naruto and "Granny" Tsunade

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much in the same way that your inability to grasp a family's structure seems to be illogical.. how hard is it to be able to comprehend that there are aunt uncles cousins so on and so forth tht make up a familly and guess what.. they arent all going to have the same last name.. ... Just read the manga and if and when my theory is confirmed I'll save you a spot at the front of the line to give me my props
It's one thing to expect that a huge group of people could be distantly related after 10-50 generations. After 4? Not gonna happen.
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