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Old 05-07-2010, 12:45 AM   #46
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Re: Naruto and "Granny" Tsunade

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Originally Posted by Human Rasengan View Post
I don't see why not Marie Antoinett at the age of 14, was married off to the 16-year-old Dauphin of Austria's worst enemy---France.. they were screing at this age.. they had to consumate the marriage to make it official so why wouldn't Naruto's slug Princess be able to have a suitor at a young age
That was just for peace.10th grade global history dude.but i say u should be at least 16 to get a baby.well,fine!okay ill go wit 14
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Old 05-07-2010, 12:59 AM   #47
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Re: Naruto and "Granny" Tsunade

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Originally Posted by Encon Uchiha View Post
That was just for peace.10th grade global history dude.but i say u should be at least 16 to get a baby.well,fine!okay ill go wit 14
Here is a list that you might find interesting

http://www.ask.com/wiki/List_of_youngest_birth_mothers
it records births of mothers before the age of 12 .. they don't record age 12 births as they are seen as a common birth age.. hmm maybe that's why Jewish males have a bar-mitzva at age 12 to signify adulthood
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Old 05-07-2010, 01:13 AM   #48
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Re: Naruto and "Granny" Tsunade

oh and even tho it's not confirmed witht he information given it would suggest that Gaara and his sand ability is a kekaigenkai
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Old 05-07-2010, 01:21 AM   #49
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Re: Naruto and "Granny" Tsunade

I believe it is simply as the manga states the 3rd kazekage (more likely than not Gaara's grandfather) used his chackra and turned it into a magnetic force and Gaara uses his chakra to controll and infuse sand.. if not he can make his own.. basically there family kekaigenkai is the ability to mold chakra into earth.. kinda in the way Toph in Avatar advanced from a regular earthbender to a metal bender
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Old 05-07-2010, 11:25 AM   #50
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Re: Naruto and "Granny" Tsunade

I only stumbled upon this thread now, and I say let's solve this... with logic!

1) Naruto is 17, Tsunade is 54, which is a difference of 37 years. That difference implies that if Tsunade is Naruto's grandmother, she'd have Minato when she was 14~23 years old and Minato the same thing.

2) Unfortunatly, the only related thing related to age that we know about Minato is his academy graduation age, which is 10.

3) Forgetting Kekkei genkai geniuses (*cough*Neji and Itachi*cough*), the minimum time between Genin and Jounin is 8 years, as seens in Kakashi (graduated at 5 and promoted to Jounin at 13). This means that Minato was at least 18 when he formed his team with Obito, Rin and Kakashi.

4) Minato would be at least 26 in the events of Kakashi Gaiden, and Kakashi was 13.

6) Since their age difference is at least 13 years and Kakashi is 30 years old, Minato, if he was alive, would be 43 (and by that logic, the Kyuubi attack happened a few months after the end of the Third Ninja War, since Minato would be at least 26 when Naruto was born)

7) Tsunade would be 11 at max to give birth to Minato. I don't think normal women are fertile so young, so Tsunade can't be Minato's mother.

You can argue some of the points, but that's what I conclude from the data available.
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Old 05-07-2010, 11:32 AM   #51
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Re: Naruto and "Granny" Tsunade

Quote:
Originally Posted by Numinous View Post
I only stumbled upon this thread now, and I say let's solve this... with logic!

1) Naruto is 17, Tsunade is 54, which is a difference of 37 years. That difference implies that if Tsunade is Naruto's grandmother, she'd have Minato when she was 14~23 years old and Minato the same thing.

2) Unfortunatly, the only related thing related to age that we know about Minato is his academy graduation age, which is 10.

3) Forgetting Kekkei genkai geniuses (*cough*Neji and Itachi*cough*), the minimum time between Genin and Jounin is 8 years, as seens in Kakashi (graduated at 5 and promoted to Jounin at 13). This means that Minato was at least 18 when he formed his team with Obito, Rin and Kakashi.

4) Minato would be at least 26 in the events of Kakashi Gaiden, and Kakashi was 13.

6) Since their age difference is at least 13 years and Kakashi is 30 years old, Minato, if he was alive, would be 43 (and by that logic, the Kyuubi attack happened a few months after the end of the Third Ninja War, since Minato would be at least 26 when Naruto was born)

7) Tsunade would be 11 at max to give birth to Minato. I don't think normal women are fertile so young, so Tsunade can't be Minato's mother.

You can argue some of the points, but that's what I conclude from the data available.
Thank you!someone smart!11 year olds dont have babies!
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Old 05-07-2010, 12:29 PM   #52
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Re: Naruto and "Granny" Tsunade

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Originally Posted by Human Rasengan View Post
http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/493-140/15 the jinchuriki are the direct blood relatives of the Kage hinted at first by http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/268/09/ with Gara being of similar powers of the third Kazekage also lending credence that Gara possesses a Kekakigenkai
this is awesome because now we know that Naruto and the other tailed beast are relatives of the kage's this tells us the reason for the Fourth Hokage to put the demon tailed fox in his son in the first place and it even lets us know that Naruto and Tsunade are related .. more than likely thru her son Minato

and it may also explain the family resemblance between Yugito and Shii

After 2 weeks this one bit of information was well worth it
The only kid with high possibility of Tsunade's kid is Kabuto. White hair like Dan, high medic like tsunade and like tsunade I dont know what he's thinking.

Not every village do what cloud do. We dont know how the mizukage or other jinchuuriki are related to their kage.

If this theory is true then what is the mizukage relation with madara? His secret son?
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Old 05-07-2010, 01:02 PM   #53
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Re: Naruto and "Granny" Tsunade

Where to start?

1) Tsunade is indeed a Senju as she is the goddaughter of the first. Despite that lineage, Hokage is not a dynastic entity. Perhaps the Feudal Lords are, but Kages are chosen from ALL ninja and it is usually the strongest. Now, it appears that Kages come from families that have strong ninja in general, but it doesn't necessarily happen that way. The first two were Senju clan, then Sarutobi clan produced the third, Minato had no identifiable clan and then it went back to Senju. Kakashi also has not been given to a particular clan and he was nearly hokage - because he was one of the strongest.

2) Naruto has not be identified as Senju - he has no specified clan. Any link between him and the Senju has been hinted at only (and by Madara - if you want to believe a guy who doesn't show his face). There is no evidence that there is any link and if there was, I think Tsunade would have made some reference to it, especially during this conversation about remembering Minato, Kushina and Naruto.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/367/10/

3) It has already be said, but it is worth saying again: the Senju were a massive clan and they brought in a lot of other clans to create Konoha. They didn't all stick to the same clan - that's just genetically unhealthy. Plus, you'd get more diverse and strong nin by interbreeding - which I'm sure was known.

Finally, whether or not you want to reward people for reading between the lines and finding evidence for any type of theory is fine, but don't label it brave or forward thinking. It is still just grasping at minor straws and theories that don't hold up when you think about them and the evidence at hand. The words and panels are all we have and the only proof anyone can use - you can look farther if you want, but don't be surprised with people refute you using the manga as proof.
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Old 05-07-2010, 01:02 PM   #54
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Re: Naruto and "Granny" Tsunade

Quote:
Originally Posted by Numinous View Post
I only stumbled upon this thread now, and I say let's solve this... with logic!

1) Naruto is 17, Tsunade is 54, which is a difference of 37 years. That difference implies that if Tsunade is Naruto's grandmother, she'd have Minato when she was 14~23 years old and Minato the same thing.

2) Unfortunatly, the only related thing related to age that we know about Minato is his academy graduation age, which is 10.

3) Forgetting Kekkei genkai geniuses (*cough*Neji and Itachi*cough*), the minimum time between Genin and Jounin is 8 years, as seens in Kakashi (graduated at 5 and promoted to Jounin at 13). This means that Minato was at least 18 when he formed his team with Obito, Rin and Kakashi.

4) Minato would be at least 26 in the events of Kakashi Gaiden, and Kakashi was 13.

6) Since their age difference is at least 13 years and Kakashi is 30 years old, Minato, if he was alive, would be 43 (and by that logic, the Kyuubi attack happened a few months after the end of the Third Ninja War, since Minato would be at least 26 when Naruto was born)

7) Tsunade would be 11 at max to give birth to Minato. I don't think normal women are fertile so young, so Tsunade can't be Minato's mother.

You can argue some of the points, but that's what I conclude from the data available.

I have to disagree with some points
1) Naruto's only 16

3) The minimum time between gennin and jounin varies. Considering Minato was a naturally talented genius, he could have easily been a jounin by the same age as Kakashi or even younger, regardless when he graduated the academy. Even Neji graduated the academy with his normal group at age 12, and only became jounin just recently. If Neji being a kekke genkai user made him an exception like Itachii, he would have graduated before the age of 12. It also depends on how soon one's sensei allows their student to take the chunnin exams first, as seen with Gai holding his squad back a year. This means we dont know how old Minato was when he became jounin or formed team Obito, but 18 sounds pretty good for becoming their squad leader. Still just a guess. It just sounds good. I can definitely see Minato as a jounin by the same age or sooner than Kakashi was made jounin.

4) Minato could just as easily be in his early 20s, at least 20 by the time of Kakashi Gaiden events

6) Again, Minato didnt have to be at least 26 and their age difference doesnt have to be 13 years. Their age difference could just as easily be 7 years. Kakashi only graduated team 7, but it was not his 1st time up for squad leader. Sarutobi showed Iruka that Kakashi had failed all his potential students in the past. So based on that, Kakashi was likely offered at least 2 different teams in the past, meaning at leat 2 years prior to getting team 7, he could have already been a sensei. Could have been even more years. Iruka's response definitely made it seem like Kakashi had failed quite a few potential teams in the past.

7) I didnt do the math, but Tsunade can easily be in her fertile teens by the time she had Minato and well pass 11.

If everyone is just playing the guessing game, Tsunade could or could not be Minato's mom. U cannot rule it out playing the guessing game with the limited info we have on Minato's age
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Old 05-07-2010, 07:31 PM   #55
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Re: Naruto and "Granny" Tsunade

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Originally Posted by AkamaruChewtoy View Post
Where to start?

1) Tsunade is indeed a Senju as she is the goddaughter of the first. Despite that lineage, Hokage is not a dynastic entity. Perhaps the Feudal Lords are, but Kages are chosen from ALL ninja and it is usually the strongest. Now, it appears that Kages come from families that have strong ninja in general, but it doesn't necessarily happen that way. The first two were Senju clan, then Sarutobi clan produced the third, Minato had no identifiable clan and then it went back to Senju. Kakashi also has not been given to a particular clan and he was nearly hokage - because he was one of the strongest.

2) Naruto has not be identified as Senju - he has no specified clan. Any link between him and the Senju has been hinted at only (and by Madara - if you want to believe a guy who doesn't show his face). There is no evidence that there is any link and if there was, I think Tsunade would have made some reference to it, especially during this conversation about remembering Minato, Kushina and Naruto.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/367/10/

3) It has already be said, but it is worth saying again: the Senju were a massive clan and they brought in a lot of other clans to create Konoha. They didn't all stick to the same clan - that's just genetically unhealthy. Plus, you'd get more diverse and strong nin by interbreeding - which I'm sure was known.

Finally, whether or not you want to reward people for reading between the lines and finding evidence for any type of theory is fine, but don't label it brave or forward thinking. It is still just grasping at minor straws and theories that don't hold up when you think about them and the evidence at hand. The words and panels are all we have and the only proof anyone can use - you can look farther if you want, but don't be surprised with people refute you using the manga as proof.
I agree with your #1 and most of your #2 eventhough I still personally think Naruto is related to the 1st or 2nd Hokage. What i dont agree with is when people say "if this were true somebody, Tsunade, would have said it already". U cannot tell Kishi that he should/would have made his character say something already just because u think they belong in the same discussion or should have been stated already. Still like u said, there is no real evidence to say Naruto is Senju, just like there was no real evidence to say Naruto was son of the 4th before it was revealed.

#3 I disagree with. As u said Senju were a massive clan. How did they get that massive? They safely interbred same way Uchiha and Hyuuga did. When Senju created Konoha, it was already a country with villagers. Senju clan and Uchiha clan were blood clans. How did they all become blood relatives from 2 different men? Well lets say the first Uchiha had 5 boys and 5 girls. The first Senju had 5 boys and 5 girls. Now those kids had babies with non Uchiha and Senju, yet their "genetic gifts" were still present in their offspring, kinda like how Haku's kekke genkai mother and normal father still produced the kekke genkai Haku. Now if those offspring had children with non Uchiha and Senju and those genetic gifts were still present, now second and 3rd cousin Uchiha and Senju could begin to safely reproduce without risking thinning out any more of their "genetic gifts" and without risk of genetic defects.

Sasuke had an aunt an uncle because they were either his father's or mother's sibling. All Uchiha were related by blood clearly, but some were directly related, same as Senju would have been. All Senju would be blood related, but the 1st only had 1 blood brother that we know of. The more they reproduced with "normal people" the less likely the offspring are to have those "gifts", or as strong "gifts" that once made them special.

Now when Konoha was formed and Uchiha kept safely interbreeding with 2nd and 3rd and 4th and 5th cousins that also had Sharingan to keep the Sharingan pure, Senju likely began breeding with common citizens, or their offspring were just less likely to become shinobi. For all we know, there may be dozens of shop keepers and blacksmith in Konoha with the last name of Senju, just no more shinobi left.

Konoha was created by 2 clans only, Senju and Uchiha. Other clan names could have come about the same way Senju and Uchiha branched off from the sons of the 1st Sage and strarted calling themselves Senju and Uchiha. Also, the female born Senju who married male commn citizens whose children would have their father's last name would have Senju dna, just not as pure and they wouldnt have the last name either.

If the 1st and the 2nd were brothers, there were definitely other Senju brother's and sisters. Say 1 family those other Senju siblings mainly specialized in allowing bugs to feed off their chakra and live in them, they could easily decide to branch off and start calling themselves Aburame. No longer trying to keep their "Senju physical gifts" as strong an as pure anymore, they wouldnt feel the need to reproduce with anyone special like Uchiha and Hyuuga, and Senju in the days when it was every clan for himself and a constant state of war.
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Old 05-07-2010, 07:47 PM   #56
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Re: Naruto and "Granny" Tsunade

You have points, but I disagree that all the clans in Konoha are derived from the Senju. While Konoha was founded due to a peace agreement between the Senju and Uchiha, I would tend to believe that the other clans joined up afterwards. The Aburame, Saritobi, Hyuuga, Inuzaka etc all probably found homes under the Senju/Uchiha alliance to gain a stability to thrive. I feel this to be true because Clans usually form from families as a sign of pride - why would someone spurn the utter greatness of Senju to be known as anything else? Also, the byakugan is thought to descend from eye techs similar to the development of the Sharingan. This couldn't have happened in the brief history of the shinobi villages (what - 4-5 generations?).

But I will submit there is little evidence that it is either way - I just am on the side that it is more likely that clans banded together and potentially interbred rather than the Senju clan splitting many times.

As for the passing on of special "genetic" techniques, here's a question: If an Uchiha has a child with a non-Uchiha, will that child develop Sharingan or not? Do all Uchiha develop the Sharingan? It is a fairly unanswerable question until Kishi gives us a situation to this effect, because as much as we'd like to talk genetics of ninja techniques, there's bare evidence to decide how that would work.

New question - has there ever been a picture of a female sharigan user? I can't think of one off the top of my head. Maybe it's Y-chromosome linked... hmmm...
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Old 05-07-2010, 07:56 PM   #57
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Re: Naruto and "Granny" Tsunade

Quote:
The only kid with high possibility of Tsunade's kid is Kabuto. White hair like Dan, high medic like tsunade and like tsunade I dont know what he's thinking.

Not every village do what cloud do. We dont know how the mizukage or other jinchuuriki are related to their kage.

If this theory is true then what is the mizukage relation with madara? His secret son?
Again, Motoi said it was common among the FIVE KAGES. That means the main hidden villages.
If Kishi somehow made a way for Minato be Tsunades son then...
ACT I haven't seen a female Sharingan user either.
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Old 05-07-2010, 08:05 PM   #58
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Re: Naruto and "Granny" Tsunade

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Originally Posted by AkamaruChewtoy View Post
You have points, but I disagree that all the clans in Konoha are derived from the Senju. While Konoha was founded due to a peace agreement between the Senju and Uchiha, I would tend to believe that the other clans joined up afterwards. The Aburame, Saritobi, Hyuuga, Inuzaka etc all probably found homes under the Senju/Uchiha alliance to gain a stability to thrive. I feel this to be true because Clans usually form from families as a sign of pride - why would someone spurn the utter greatness of Senju to be known as anything else? Also, the byakugan is thought to descend from eye techs similar to the development of the Sharingan. This couldn't have happened in the brief history of the shinobi villages (what - 4-5 generations?).

But I will submit there is little evidence that it is either way - I just am on the side that it is more likely that clans banded together and potentially interbred rather than the Senju clan splitting many times.

As for the passing on of special "genetic" techniques, here's a question: If an Uchiha has a child with a non-Uchiha, will that child develop Sharingan or not? Do all Uchiha develop the Sharingan? It is a fairly unanswerable question until Kishi gives us a situation to this effect, because as much as we'd like to talk genetics of ninja techniques, there's bare evidence to decide how that would work.

New question - has there ever been a picture of a female sharigan user? I can't think of one off the top of my head. Maybe it's Y-chromosome linked... hmmm...
U are probably right about all clans in Konoha not having some Senju dna. Even children of the everyday citizens could have decided to become shinobi and later formed a clan based on their skills. I can definitely see other clans wanting to be apart of Konoha, considering that Konoha was formed from the strongest 2 clans in their world. I know if I was some random clan, I would rather join the strongest of them in their village if everyone decided to team up into villages. But I can see Senju branching off from their name eventhough Senju was a form of pride because Konoha became their pride overall. As long as they were Konoha citizens, they were "Senju" and their new "pride" could have become what their specific, immediate family was capable of that set them apart form other Senju and other ninja. Part of the reason that Uchiha rebelled and Sasuke wants revenge on all of Konoha is because Uchiha were made to feel like they were not equal in Konoha and that they were inferior and second rate citizens, while Senju became 1 and the same with Konoha.

If Uchiha has a child with a non Uchiha, I think that child could possibly develop Sharingan like Haku developed ice when his father was not of their kekkegenkai clan, but that Uchiha with Sahringan would most likey be a much weaker version than those Uchiha that reproduce with other Uchiha. The first Uchiha had to reproduce with normal ninja until they had enough members that they could safely reproduce with other Uchiha and safely build their numbers. I think I remember reading early on that all Uchiha did get the Sharingan, but I havent seen that link since if I did read that in the manga. It seems that their Sharingan isnt as dominant as the Byakugan.

A female Sharingan user? I think the only picture has been in Madara's flashback of the Uchiha clan when telling Sasuke the story. Im almost sure I remember noticing at least 1 shinobi that looked like a female. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/398/18/ The one in the middle could pass for a female and the 1 below "her" to the right, especially in the eyes, and they both have the same hairstyle with the "pony tail" http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/17/ Here, in betwen Itachi's father and the Uchiha on the right (on his left side) u see what is clearly an Uchiha girl's face
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Old 05-07-2010, 08:14 PM   #59
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Re: Naruto and "Granny" Tsunade

I don't think it would be weaker, but a highly recessive trait. It would probably evolve and possibly the same qualitys. Meh, im not going to theorize on this as we have no manga evidence but Senju had to have mixed with other clans in the village.
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Old 05-07-2010, 08:31 PM   #60
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Re: Naruto and "Granny" Tsunade

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Originally Posted by NamikazeNaruto View Post
I don't think it would be weaker, but a highly recessive trait. It would probably evolve and possibly the same qualitys. Meh, im not going to theorize on this as we have no manga evidence but Senju had to have mixed with other clans in the village.
I said weaker because It seems that Neji and Hinata's father seemed to have strong genes, especially coming from the head of the branch family. Sasuke and Itachi seemed have had stronger Uchiha chkara kinda like Madara and his brother, and the 1st and 2nd Hokage seemed to have stood out in their clan. Since all Senju, Uchiha and Hyuuga likely all started out from 2 different men who both got their gifts from 1 guy, im assuming that the strongest of their genes were kept that strong in those individual families because they had the "purest" of that kekke genkai dna, meaning less outside blood mixed in it compared to their other clansmen. And out of all the Senju blood that must be somewhere in Konoha, nobody but Naruto and Jiraiya seem to stand out when it comes to natural stamina. Still its only, just my assumption/guess which holds no water really.

It probably would just be a more recessive gene and not necessarily a weaker Sharingan with weaker chakra. I agree that Senju possibly did mix with other clans in the village and either those offspring stopped being shinobi, took their non Senju father's last name, or they changed their last name like Senju and Uchiha changed theirs from whatever it was before they decided to single themselves out from the family that they were. They all started as 1 clan with 1 last name I presume, which would have been the last name of the 1st Sage.
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It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf.
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Knowing others is wisdom; knowing yourself is Enlightenment.
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