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Old 09-04-2010, 03:16 PM   #106
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Re: kisame knew

Oh hey, noticed that NeoK tried to jump in on this. Don't even try, dude, I already killed you in this exact same argument at least twice.

Veng, you have to understand that what you're saying is that "what Kishi said would happen wouldn't really have happened". With no actual proof to back it up. I've already explained that Madara could make a war any time he wanted just using the Hidden Mist, which would result in the other nations joining the brawl.

As to why the Mist never got invaded? Well, we can follow your line of logic here and say that WE DON'T KNOW THAT THE MIST NEVER GOT ATTACKED. There's no reason to believe it, but why not argue it!? As Shrike pointed out, it has a lot to do with Kishi's actual writing. Kishi focuses on Konoha. So if he says that war was barely averted for Konoha, chances are, WAR WAS BARELY AVERTED FOR KONOHA. Because writing Konoha getting into a war would be a VERY MAJOR PLOT POINT. If similar conditions hit a different village? Kishi doesn't give a shit, and it has no bearing on the plot. So why bother going into detailed exposition on the diplomatic relations between the new regime in Kiri and the other nations? It didn't matter. Kiri meant nothing to the plot once Madara lost control of it, until now when they join the happy fun ninja alliance.

Plus there's the fact that Madara could have started the war himself in the first example, but not in the Kiri example.
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Old 09-04-2010, 03:40 PM   #107
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Re: kisame knew

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenninKorby View Post
Oh hey, noticed that NeoK tried to jump in on this. Don't even try, dude, I already killed you in this exact same argument at least twice.
LOL no comment wasn't around for that one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenninKorby View Post
Veng, you have to understand that what you're saying is that "what Kishi said would happen wouldn't really have happened". With no actual proof to back it up. I've already explained that Madara could make a war any time he wanted just using the Hidden Mist, which would result in the other nations joining the brawl.
I asked you before what makes you think Madara was still in control of the Mist when he was found by Itachi in some random remote area & not in the Mist village itself were he'd be well protected? Based on this it seems pretty apparent that Madara didn't have control of the Mist at the time of the Massacre.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenninKorby View Post
As to why the Mist never got invaded? Well, we can follow your line of logic here and say that WE DON'T KNOW THAT THE MIST NEVER GOT ATTACKED.
Problem is we do know since no ninja war was said to have happened after ninja war 3. Based on Kisame's age during his time as a Mist shinobi we can safely assume that he was at the very least 19 (most likely a bit older) which places that event ruffly 13 years ago (he died at the age of 32) at most which would be after the death of Minato. Meaning Madara was most likely the Mist Kage during the time of the 3rd great ninja war. Since no other major war between villages has since been talked about we can safely assume that they never got invaded as a result of changing Kages by way of a coup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenninKorby View Post
There's no reason to believe it, but why not argue it!?
Because it holds relevance since its basically the same situation that could have happened with Konoha.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenninKorby View Post
As Shrike pointed out, it has a lot to do with Kishi's actual writing. Kishi focuses on Konoha. So if he says that war was barely averted for Konoha, chances are, WAR WAS BARELY AVERTED FOR KONOHA. Because writing Konoha getting into a war would be a VERY MAJOR PLOT POINT.
Actually Kishi's own words are put in side text on chapter covers & closing statements. The people who actually suggested this were the elders, Itahci, & Uchiha Madara.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenninKorby View Post
If similar conditions hit a different village? Kishi doesn't give a shit, and it has no bearing on the plot.
Which means nothing in the actual discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenninKorby View Post
So why bother going into detailed exposition on the diplomatic relations between the new regime in Kiri and the other nations? It didn't matter.
You really think it'll never matter? Do you really think Kishi isn't going to touch more on the Kiri issue since allot of it relates back to Madara? I tend to disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenninKorby View Post
Kiri meant nothing to the plot once Madara lost control of it, until now when they join the happy fun ninja alliance.
Again with a fall back on plot while ignoring the actual points I'm addressing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenninKorby View Post
Plus there's the fact that Madara could have started the war himself in the first example, but not in the Kiri example.
Again what makes you think Madara had control of the Mist during the time of the Uchiha Massacre?
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Old 09-04-2010, 03:56 PM   #108
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Re: kisame knew

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vengeance View Post
I asked you before what makes you think Madara was still in control of the Mist when he was found by Itachi in some random remote area & not in the Mist village itself were he'd be well protected? Based on this it seems pretty apparent that Madara didn't have control of the Mist at the time of the Massacre.
How long do you honestly believe that Mei has been Mizukage? Also, consider that "Tobi" had not been involved with Akatsuki directly (as in Zetsu's supposed helper) until not long before Part II started. If you're going to grab at theoretical possibilities that have no honest basis, then you have to acknowledge the possibility that Madara started focusing all of his attention on Akatsuki WHEN HE LOST CONTROL OF KIRI.

Why would Madara be near Konoha? Possible answers:

1. Let's see, he's been plotting Konoha and the Uchiha's downfalls for at least 50 years. Spying isn't exactly unlikely especially for someone who has T/S jutsu like Madara.
2. Madara planted the seeds of rebellion within the Uchiha in the first place, and was there just to spectate the results.
3. Kishi fucking felt like it.

Quote:
Problem is we do know since no ninja war was said to have happened after ninja war 3. Based on Kisame's age during his time as a Mist shinobi we can safely assume that he was at the very least 19 (most likely a bit older) which places that event ruffly 13 years ago (he died at the age of 32) at most which would be after the death of Minato. Meaning Madara was most likely the Mist Kage during the time of the 3rd great ninja war. Since no other major war between villages has since been talked about we can safely assume that they never got invaded as a result of changing Kages by way of a coup.
Correction: No GREAT ninja war has occurred. We know that Konoha and Kumo got into a brawl not 3 years after the 3rd Great Ninja war, as I already mentioned. Mist is not in a favorable position to join wars, based on its geography, especially since it wasn't until midway through the 3rd Great Ninja war that the Uzumaki, who were in the Land of Waves, were wiped out, preventing them from blocking the only direct route Kiri would have to the Land of Fire. But, especially after the Uzumaki were gone, it was in a fairly good position to START THEM. No one would be dumb enough to invade the Land of Water (Island group very far away), but the Hidden Mist could freely invade the coastal nations any time they wanted.

Quote:
Because it holds relevance since its basically the same situation that could have happened with Konoha.
Losing one powerful ninja < losing every powerful non-Uchiha. An unstable village with a ninja of questionable actual skill (Fugaku) in charge is an easy target. Hiruzen was strong enough and had enough of a reputation to make other nations uneasy about war with Konoha. Fugaku would not be.

Quote:
Actually Kishi's own words are put in side text on chapter covers & closing statements. The people who actually suggested this were the elders, Itahci, & Uchiha Madara.
All characters who were effectively being used for EXPOSITION.

Quote:
Which means nothing in the actual discussion.
Yes, the author's motivations for causing certain plot devices is in no way relevant.

Quote:
You really think it'll never matter? Do you really think Kishi isn't going to touch more on the Kiri issue since allot of it relates back to Madara? I tend to disagree.
The most we might see is a flashback to Mei usurping Yagura. That's all we're gonna see from after Madara lost control.

Quote:
Again with a fall back on plot while ignoring the actual points I'm addressing.
It would be nice if they were valid points worth addressing.

Quote:
Again what makes you think Madara had control of the Mist during the time of the Uchiha Massacre?
see above.
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Old 09-04-2010, 05:55 PM   #109
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Re: kisame knew

too long a post. pain in the arse to read sometimes!!
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Old 09-04-2010, 07:13 PM   #110
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Re: kisame knew

Agreed, however in a real life situation, it could've gone a different way if that had happened (Senju stopped treating Uchiha like second class citizens). But in Kishi-land, he wanted to make it seem as if the Uchiha was just out for blood for everyone, and I remember the picture they used (if they used one at all) of Uchiha rebellion and the Hokage mansion was on fire and all types of shit. It's crazy.
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Old 09-04-2010, 07:28 PM   #111
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Re: kisame knew

Yeah that's what some people aren't getting. Vengeance is considering what would happen in the real world, not Kishi land where everyone in Konoha is just in what they do. In the real world, Konoha would be the US. Now say you took out the air force(Uchiha.), no bombs are gonna be tossed, right? This would put the US at a disadvantage and would be a free-for-all for major countries to take it over. But in Kishi land, the US(Konoha) would remain untouched. Also if a village was attacking Konoha they would take the side of the winning person(Konoha) so you could take out the weaker (Uchiha) to later on destroy the stronger force in order to conquer it. The massacre weakened Konoha a hell of a lot because now they just killed the police force. But Kishi makes it seem like Konoha was in the right and remained as the top village when in reality someone could've taken it over due to the vast decrease in power. If the revolt was successful, the elders would be eliminated and Konoha would still be able to wreck people because they still had their police force intact.

tl;dr: If the Uchiha were alive, a lot of shit could've been prevented and Konoha would still have their police force.

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Old 09-04-2010, 08:19 PM   #112
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Re: kisame knew

just to clarify, i was responding to this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vengeance View Post
I'm loving it how none of you have even made a single attempt to talk about my mention of the mist village in this instance. Going back & forth is pointless at this point since everyone is repeating the same shit while ignoring my actual main points.
didnt see the other post
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Quotes for noobs (learn how to break up a quote)
Quote:
Originally Posted by minato uchiha View Post
Ok Stubborn donkey, how do you break it up please and if your not willingly to tell me, then please DONT offer me no advice in future
So you can post the second bit and i shouldnt be allowed to if i dont tell you? Why be so rude?

Anyways, here is a quotes for noobs guide


1. A basic quote

[*QUOTE][*/QUOTE]

(the * need to be removed for it to work, I put them in so you can see the text) is a basic quote that just wraps something in a quote without saying who quoted it who quoted so

[*QUOTE]this is a quote[*/QUOTE] without any * would look like
Quote:
this is a quote

Edit: there is a button for this, it looks like a speech bubble. If you select text and then press the button the selected text will automatically be wrapped with the quote tag


2. A quote that says who said it

[*QUOTE=who said it][*/QUOTE] this adds who said the post, manually putting that there can be useful when quoting something external. Example:

[*QUOTE=Mangastream]Remember all you sexy bastards out there, Naruto, Bleach, OP, FT, etc. all on break this week. Feel free to take your rage out on us[*/QUOTE] without any * would look like
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mangastream
Remember all you sexy bastards out there, Naruto, Bleach, OP, FT, etc. all on break this week. Feel free to take your rage out on us
3. A quote that says who said it and links to the post where it was said

[*QUOTE=who said it;X][*/QUOTE]

Where X is the post number.

For the post that i originally quoted it would look like this

[*QUOTE=minato uchiha;2118164]Ok Stubborn donkey, how do you break it up please and if your not willingly to tell me, then please DONT offer me no advice in future[*/QUOTE]

That is what you get when you press the quote button.

4. Breaking up a quote

Now that you know how quotes work it all boils down to preference, how you want it to look like and how you want to do it.

One way of doing it is copying the latter part of the original quote [*/QUOTE] and then pasting it after each section you break up, write your reply, choose the text you want then paste it after that portion, repeat till you finish the go back and copy then paste the first part of the text at the beginning of each portion of text. Of course you can immediately copy and paste both parts of a poste so that you dont forget one in the end.

The end result would be something like this

[*QUOTE=minato uchiha;2118164]Ok Stubborn donkey,[*/QUOTE]
My reply 1
[*QUOTE=minato uchiha;2118164] how do you break it up please[*/QUOTE]
my reply 2
[*QUOTE=minato uchiha;2118164]and if your not willingly to tell me, [*/QUOTE]
my reply 3
[*QUOTE=minato uchiha;2118164]then please DONT offer me no advice in future[*/QUOTE]
my reply 4



Which without any * would look like

Quote:
Originally Posted by minato uchiha View Post
Ok Stubborn donkey,
My reply 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by minato uchiha View Post
how do you break it up please
my reply 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by minato uchiha View Post
and if your not willingly to tell me,
my reply 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by minato uchiha View Post
then please DONT offer me no advice in future
my reply 4


Another way of doing it would be to cut and paste the second part of the quote tag after the first section of text you want to seperate then write your reply select the second part and hit he quote button (it looks like a text bubble),if you do that without anything else the end result would be

[*QUOTE=minato uchiha;2118164]Ok Stubborn donkey,[*/QUOTE]
My reply 1
[*QUOTE] how do you break it up please[*/QUOTE]
my reply 2
[*QUOTE]and if your not willingly to tell me, [*/QUOTE]
my reply 3
[*QUOTE]then please DONT offer me no advice in future[*/QUOTE]
my reply 4

Which would look like

Quote:
Originally Posted by minato uchiha View Post
Ok Stubborn donkey,
My reply 1
Quote:
how do you break it up please
my reply 2
Quote:
and if your not willingly to tell me,
my reply 3
Quote:
then please DONT offer me no advice in future
my reply 4

To make it like the previous example (which wpuld be preferred, though not necessary ) copy the part that says who posted with the link to the post and paste it accordingly to the proper part in each first half of each quote tag. In my I would copy =minato uchiha;2118164 and paste it where the # is
[*QUOTE#] to get [*QUOTE=minato uchiha;2118164] (of course with the * removed)


Of course you can use any other method you like to get to the end result, but now that you know what the end rwsult looks like I think there shouldnt be any problems
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Old 09-04-2010, 09:16 PM   #113
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Re: kisame knew

SenninKorby, you blew up your ass in the toilet. You come on these boards and post your opinions, stop popping like you're Kishi's assistant or something, because you're NOT. You have a Negato complex, you think any and everything that forms an idea in your mind is right, or correct. The Uchiha Massacre is part of the story that is full of plot holes. Don't attempt to fill them in with your bullshit, and that makes it so. Whether you like it or not Itachi is a hero to 'those other than residents/citizens of Konoha'. And since I didn't see you anyways but on Veng's post, instead of attempting to talk shit, why don't you answer the questions that I posted about Itachi. Did he meet and get to know EVERY Uchiha, to make this great proclaimation that 'no one could be saved besides Sasuke.' I love the irony of the story though, Itachi saves Konoha from the Uchihas, but places his hopes for the future in Sasuke (helluva way to think Sasuke would follow anything about Itachi after slaying their parents in his face), who wants to rape Konoha worst than Nagato did. Nobody in this thread or any thread can ever convince me that EVERY Uchiha had to die in the Massacre, including women, children, and older people. Thats something one would expect from Suna pre Orochimaru's invasion of Konoha. Not from goody goody Konoha, the land of hipocrites.
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Old 09-04-2010, 09:19 PM   #114
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Re: kisame knew

Lol. Blew his ass up in the toilet? Lol.
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Old 09-04-2010, 09:19 PM   #115
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Re: kisame knew

I don't normally do this but it's "hypocrites" not "hipocrites."
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Old 09-04-2010, 09:20 PM   #116
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Re: kisame knew

Ninja, you don't normally do that, but you do it a lot. Hahahaha.
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Old 09-05-2010, 06:46 AM   #117
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Re: kisame knew

He has explosive diarrhea ?? LOL.
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Old 09-05-2010, 07:04 AM   #118
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Re: kisame knew

I guess the "blow up in the toilet" must be another way to say "you're bullshitting".
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Old 09-05-2010, 08:16 AM   #119
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Re: kisame knew

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenninKorby View Post
How long do you honestly believe that Mei has been Mizukage?
Mei is pretty old dude her character is portrayed as that of a cougar making her around the age of 40. So umm yeah based on that tid bit of information it's safe to assume that she could have been Kage for over 9 years which puts her in a position of power around the time of the massacre.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenninKorby View Post
Also, consider that "Tobi" had not been involved with Akatsuki directly (as in Zetsu's supposed helper) until not long before Part II started.
This means nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenninKorby View Post
If you're going to grab at theoretical possibilities that have no honest basis, then you have to acknowledge the possibility that Madara started focusing all of his attention on Akatsuki WHEN HE LOST CONTROL OF KIRI.
Actually I do have a clear basis for what I'm referring to.

How did Itachi find Madara in the first place in of all places some random remote region in the middle of a forest? Why was Madara not inside of the Mist village at the time of his conversation with Itachi where he'd be much better protected? The point is simple Itachi was able to find Madara in the first because of rumors that went around about the Mist Kage being overthrown because he was somehow controlled by Genjutsu. It's not a hard concept to actually grasp dude the manga implies that he wasn't actually in power.

Madara: But Itachi found me out. He was the only one to notice my presence. link

Why would Itachi even consider to look for Madara? Where would he even begin to start his search without some type of hunch?

Madara: He sought me out & gave me an ultimatum. link

Notice where they're actually meeting. That does not appear to be an actual village were it would be harder to even get into contact with Madara much less talk with him. It's some random forest somewhere.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SenninKorby View Post
Why would Madara be near Konoha? Possible answers:

1. Let's see, he's been plotting Konoha and the Uchiha's downfalls for at least 50 years. Spying isn't exactly unlikely especially for someone who has T/S jutsu like Madara.
Actually based on your theory Madara would need to be in the Mist village watching over Yagura. Really why would he have time to take a leisurely stroll around some forest where he just so happened to be caught by Itachi Uchiha? Why was Madara not guarded by Mist ninja while taking this ridiculous stroll around the forest?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenninKorby View Post
2. Madara planted the seeds of rebellion within the Uchiha in the first place, and was there just to spectate the results.
But that's not how the actual situation is explained. Basically you're now implying that Madara was in contact with other Uchiha. If that were the case why were these Uchiha allowed to die for the sake of Itachi who Madara himself knew to be someone not to be trusted? Your examples are off base while mine are simply more rational based on the timeline & locations of said conversations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenninKorby View Post
3. Kishi fucking felt like it.
Bogus response. One I'd expect from someone who refuses to think outside the box.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenninKorby View Post
Correction: No GREAT ninja war has occurred. We know that Konoha and Kumo got into a brawl not 3 years after the 3rd Great Ninja war, as I already mentioned.
How is this a correction you do realize that when I'm saying ninja war I'm making it short for world war 4 right? Since you know I've been repeating that shit in the past like 6 or so post? Random encounters on the battlefield does not constitute all out war & invasion. There's also no such indication of the Mist being invaded during their transition based on the actual conversations of the event in question. Re-read the Kage summit arc please before responding again.

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Originally Posted by SenninKorby View Post
Mist is not in a favorable position to join wars, based on its geography,
LMAO & what does the Mist joining a war have to do with them being invaded by say Kumo? FYI Water terrain isn't actually a real issue for shinobi that can easily ran on water & have boats. Also Kumo is also in an area with large bodies of water which automatically makes them knowledgeable in fighting in those types of areas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenninKorby View Post
especially since it wasn't until midway through the 3rd Great Ninja war that the Uzumaki, who were in the Land of Waves, were wiped out, preventing them from blocking the only direct route Kiri would have to the Land of Fire
Where are you getting these random timelines from? Also relevance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenninKorby View Post
But, especially after the Uzumaki were gone, it was in a fairly good position to START THEM.
Again relevance to the quoted section in regards to Kisame's age & Madara role within ninja war 3?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenninKorby View Post
No one would be dumb enough to invade the Land of Water (Island group very far away), but the Hidden Mist could freely invade the coastal nations any time they wanted.
Again water terrain is meaningless when shinobi can run on water & their are other villages such as Kumo that would be very familiar with fighting on those types of terrains. How is it dumb to take advantage of a Mist that just got it's Kage dethrone by way of coup? Isn't that the whole basis of your argument that Konoha would have been invaded?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenninKorby View Post
Losing one powerful ninja < losing every powerful non-Uchiha.
The Mist had a confrontation between separate factions within the village. One being Yagura/Madara loyalist & the other being Mei/Aoi supporters. Which again is the same as Senju/Uchiha. Your one ninja theory on this is simply off base. You also fail to understand the concept of coup by way of assassination. I mean really we're talking about killing the one's in a position of power(Sarutobi, Danzou, & Elders) & not every last non Uchiha in the village. Stop acting retarded dude the Mist situation holds relevance because it's the exact same thing I'm suggesting the Uchiha do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenninKorby View Post
An unstable village with a ninja of questionable actual skill (Fugaku) in charge is an easy target. Hiruzen was strong enough and had enough of a reputation to make other nations uneasy about war with Konoha. Fugaku would not be.
Hiruzen was an old man way past his prime while Fugaku was the leader of the buggyman ninja feared by all & was actually in his prime. Which do you think is actually more intimidating when you consider the idea that this buggyman ninja is the one who overthrew the old fart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenninKorby View Post
All characters who were effectively being used for EXPOSITION.
Which doesn't actually discredit what I said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenninKorby View Post
Yes, the author's motivations for causing certain plot devices is in no way relevant.
In this particular discussion it's irrelevant as I already pointed out we're discussing what could have happened had the situation been different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenninKorby View Post
The most we might see is a flashback to Mei usurping Yagura. That's all we're gonna see from after Madara lost control.
Doubt it. There's Zabuza's take on the situation (was he or wasn't he a Yagura/Madara loyalist) & the side in which the 7 swordsmen actually took (note at the very least 2 of the 7 defected from the village while one of which has already been revealed to be a Madara loyalist). There's more to this story then a simple flashback consisting of 3 pages. The 7 Swordsmen of the Mist is something Kishi has to some day talk about based on the hype of this elite group since the beginning of the fucking manga. What better way to do it than to explain the situation with Yagura?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenninKorby View Post
It would be nice if they were valid points worth addressing.
Quote the guy who cries Kishi.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SenninKorby View Post
see above.
Cry Moar? see above.
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Originally Posted by batonnoir View Post
1) There may well be some literary or map correlation between the Uzumaki and Ireland.
Check out this awesome manga called Magi.

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Last edited by Vengeance; 09-05-2010 at 08:17 AM.
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Old 09-05-2010, 11:31 AM   #120
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Re: kisame knew

Quote:
Originally Posted by ninjalostboy95 View Post
Yeash that's what some people aren't getting. Vengeance is considering what would happen in the real world, not Kishi land where everyone in Konoha is just in what they do. In the real world, Konoha would be the US. Now say you took out the air force(Uchiha.), no bombs are gonna be tossed, right? This would put the US at a disadvantage and would be a free-for-all for major countries to take it over. But in Kishi land, the US(Konoha) would remain untouched. Also if a village was attacking Konoha they would take the side of the winning person(Konoha) so you could take out the weaker (Uchiha) to later on destroy the stronger force in order to conquer it. The massacre weakened Konoha a hell of a lot because now they just killed the police force. But Kishi makes it seem like Konoha was in the right and remained as the top village when in reality someone could've taken it over due to the vast decrease in power. If the revolt was successful, the elders would be eliminated and Konoha would still be able to wreck people because they still had their police force intact.

tl;dr: If the Uchiha were alive, a lot of shit could've been prevented and Konoha would still have their police force.
But the funny thing in Kishi land is:

The Konoha genocide of Uchiha, Konoha remain untouch

The Mist genocide of Haku Clan and the Bone Clan, the Mist still remain untouch.

The Sand lost their their third kazekage, the third ninja war start

See any logic?
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