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Old 07-27-2005, 07:52 AM   #1
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Orochimaru a youma?

Intresting theory i've just read about..

"Hi, all. Long-time lurker, first-time poster.

Forgive me if this has been mentioned before, but a recent re-reading of the manga brought up this idea to my mind: could Orocimaru have a youma sealed within him? Not very likely, I'll admit, but consider the evidence:

1) Oro's Eyes: Orochimaru has some of the freakiest eyes in the series, yet there's been no overt explanation for them. We know from the flashbacks that he's had these eyes at least since his childhood, if not his whole life. Sure there could be other explanations, or no explanation at all, given that we've seen other characters with funky eyes before (Kurenai). Still, his having a demon inside him would go a long way to explaining this, as well as giving some insight into why he turned out to be such a warped individual, a la Gaara.

2) Oro's Jutsus: Oro's extendible tounge and neck are among the few jutsus we've seen that apparently do not require hand seals to activate. Rember how easily he called upon these skills when his hands had been sealed by the 3rd. If these abilities were not jutsus, but were, in fact, the manifestion of demonic power, this again would provide a ready explanation.

3) Oro's disinterest in Naruto: From the first that he meets Naruto, Orochimaru is instantly aware of who he is and what he has sealed inside him, yet he shows no interest at all beyond first sealing and later attempting to kill Naruto. This strikes me as odd behavior for someone as notably power-hungry as Orochimaru. If he was aware that Naruto had the Kyuubi sealed in him, and had him readily at hand, wouldn't the thought of attempting to harness that power at least occur to him? Not if he already possessed a youma of his own...

4) Oro's departure from Akatsuki: We recently learned that apparetnly Orochimaru fled from Akatsuki shortly after learning of thier plans. This could be connected to my theorty in two possible ways; he was disinterested in further congress with his Akatsuki peers when he learned that thier ultimate goals had nothing to offer him that he did not already possess, or he fled because he feared they would discover his secret and take his youma for thier own purposes.

Refutation: Like any good academic, I will present the weaknesses in my own hypotheses as they occur to me.

Firstly, the biggest problem with this theory is that if Oro has this power at his disposal, why hasn't he used it? A number of reasons could explain this. We have seen that there are varying degrees of the completeness of the demon sealings, as it would appear that Gaara's Shukaku is considerably less restricted than Naruto's Kyuubi. Perhaps if Oro does have his own youma, its sealed in such a way that he is unable to access its full power. Also, it could be that Oro purposely refrains from its usage for fear of attracting further attention from Akatsuki.

Secondly, if Oro does have a youma, why would he fear Itachi (or anyone else, for that matter)? This is a problem not easily explained away, but it can be understood if you consider the nature of the Mangekyou Sharingan. Perhaps the hypnotic nature of the Mangekyou is the Achilles' heel of the sealed demons. If this is true, it would put Itachi's place and importance among the Akatsuki in a whole new light, especially if thier plans for controlling the youma depend on having a Mangekyou Sharingan user among thier number.

Thirdly, and this is purely from a practical point of view, what kind of youma could Oro have? We already know of the existence of one really big snake (Manda), so to have second, possibly bigger one sealed inside Oro would seem somewhat redundant from a story-line perspective. Perhaps Oro's hypothetical youma is more like his eight-headed namesake from Japanese mythology. This would also be interesting to note considering the seemingly numeric nature of the known youma; Shukaku=One Tail, Kyuubi=Nine Tails, Orochi=Eight Heads?"


"The second one is when Orochimaru took a new body while waiting for Sasuke. Right before he took the body there was some sort of image of a snake around Orochimaru that appeared. This could simply be just showing he's a snake user but I don't think Kishimoto would draw it with the effect it has w/o some purpose. I think it's a hint that there's a Youma inside of him. This is all speculation though and I could be completely over analyzing it but it's just a theory after all."
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Old 07-27-2005, 08:48 AM   #2
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That's a good theory...I never would've thought about that.
Quite plausible too seeing each member of the Akatsuki is given a demon to carry. He could've gotten his and then left the Akatsuki.
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Old 07-27-2005, 09:23 AM   #3
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wow that is a good theory. And that person maybe right
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Old 07-27-2005, 09:45 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaRk_DaNTe
Intresting theory i've just read about..

"Hi, all. Long-time lurker, first-time poster.

Forgive me if this has been mentioned before, but a recent re-reading of the manga brought up this idea to my mind: could Orocimaru have a youma sealed within him? Not very likely, I'll admit, but consider the evidence:

1) Oro's Eyes: Orochimaru has some of the freakiest eyes in the series, yet there's been no overt explanation for them. We know from the flashbacks that he's had these eyes at least since his childhood, if not his whole life. Sure there could be other explanations, or no explanation at all, given that we've seen other characters with funky eyes before (Kurenai). Still, his having a demon inside him would go a long way to explaining this, as well as giving some insight into why he turned out to be such a warped individual, a la Gaara.

2) Oro's Jutsus: Oro's extendible tounge and neck are among the few jutsus we've seen that apparently do not require hand seals to activate. Rember how easily he called upon these skills when his hands had been sealed by the 3rd. If these abilities were not jutsus, but were, in fact, the manifestion of demonic power, this again would provide a ready explanation.

3) Oro's disinterest in Naruto: From the first that he meets Naruto, Orochimaru is instantly aware of who he is and what he has sealed inside him, yet he shows no interest at all beyond first sealing and later attempting to kill Naruto. This strikes me as odd behavior for someone as notably power-hungry as Orochimaru. If he was aware that Naruto had the Kyuubi sealed in him, and had him readily at hand, wouldn't the thought of attempting to harness that power at least occur to him? Not if he already possessed a youma of his own...

4) Oro's departure from Akatsuki: We recently learned that apparetnly Orochimaru fled from Akatsuki shortly after learning of thier plans. This could be connected to my theorty in two possible ways; he was disinterested in further congress with his Akatsuki peers when he learned that thier ultimate goals had nothing to offer him that he did not already possess, or he fled because he feared they would discover his secret and take his youma for thier own purposes.

Refutation: Like any good academic, I will present the weaknesses in my own hypotheses as they occur to me.

Firstly, the biggest problem with this theory is that if Oro has this power at his disposal, why hasn't he used it? A number of reasons could explain this. We have seen that there are varying degrees of the completeness of the demon sealings, as it would appear that Gaara's Shukaku is considerably less restricted than Naruto's Kyuubi. Perhaps if Oro does have his own youma, its sealed in such a way that he is unable to access its full power. Also, it could be that Oro purposely refrains from its usage for fear of attracting further attention from Akatsuki.

Secondly, if Oro does have a youma, why would he fear Itachi (or anyone else, for that matter)? This is a problem not easily explained away, but it can be understood if you consider the nature of the Mangekyou Sharingan. Perhaps the hypnotic nature of the Mangekyou is the Achilles' heel of the sealed demons. If this is true, it would put Itachi's place and importance among the Akatsuki in a whole new light, especially if thier plans for controlling the youma depend on having a Mangekyou Sharingan user among thier number.

Thirdly, and this is purely from a practical point of view, what kind of youma could Oro have? We already know of the existence of one really big snake (Manda), so to have second, possibly bigger one sealed inside Oro would seem somewhat redundant from a story-line perspective. Perhaps Oro's hypothetical youma is more like his eight-headed namesake from Japanese mythology. This would also be interesting to note considering the seemingly numeric nature of the known youma; Shukaku=One Tail, Kyuubi=Nine Tails, Orochi=Eight Heads?"


"The second one is when Orochimaru took a new body while waiting for Sasuke. Right before he took the body there was some sort of image of a snake around Orochimaru that appeared. This could simply be just showing he's a snake user but I don't think Kishimoto would draw it with the effect it has w/o some purpose. I think it's a hint that there's a Youma inside of him. This is all speculation though and I could be completely over analyzing it but it's just a theory after all."
Good theory I am going to have fun with this thread jumping back from each side. You have already mentioned the weaknesses in your theory and I thank you but what kind of person would I be not to rise to the occasion and debate with you why this can't be and then later on debate with everyone else why it can be.
1). As you pointed out Oro has weird eyes, which doesn't necessarily mean that he has a demon inside of him we have seen many different people with abnormal eyes. Kurenai for one has very bizarre eyes as well as Kisame, and the member of the Organization that is half black and half white. At this time we aren't aware of either of them having a demon inside of them, especially not Kurenai since Itachi was going to kill her at one point in time. For the individuals who do have demons inside of them Gaara and Naruto, they display normal eyes for various time frames, Naruto will keep his normal eyes until he actually calls out the kyuubi's chakra. Gaara will keep his eyes until his face changes or until a body part changes into his other form. If he changes his eyes after a body part changes he can change his eyes back to normal as we see during his fight with Sasuke in the chuunin exam ring.

2). True some of Oro's snake like jutsu's don't require hand seals, but neither does Naruto's Rasengan, I am just speculating right now but there are either a bunch of jutsu's that just don't require hand seals or the long shot answer that most high level jutsu's 6th, 7th, and 8th level jutsu's don't require hand seals. This would seperate the men from the boys in terms of jutsu's basically almost any ninja can do a hand seal ninjutsu through practice, but which ones are dedicated enough to actually come up with your own or understand the principles of a jutsu to be able to think what you want to do and carry it out. SIDE NOTE:(These two theories I am going over in my head all the time and haven't decided which one I will go with since there isn't enough proof yet for either one.)

3). Oro didn't seem the least bit interested in Naruto because he along with everyone else labeled him as a dropout that will never amount to anything. Rememeber when Oro and Jiraiya were fighting, Oro was like why do you take that kid on, does he remind you of yourself, basically stating that Jiraiya used to be an embarrsement. When he did realize that Naruto had potential he was going to kill him because he saw that Naruto is a good guy like Jiriaya that would never help Oro. Another thing Oro doesn't go after people, he lets them know up front if you want power then come to me, if they do then he is cool with it. Also Naruto is not someone that will succumb to the darkside just to get ahead he knows that there are no shortcuts to achieving his dream. Naruto also is lacking the one thing Oro wants right now the sharingan so Naruto is no good to him, he can't get anything from Naruto and can't get him to fight for him. Oro wanted to kill Naruto in the end because he sees him as a threat, if Naruto can take care of Kabuto at his current age then as Naruto gets older then he might be able to take care of me as well, is Oro's thinking.

4). I am under the impression that Oro joined the Organization to try to get closer to Itachi to kill him and take his sharingan, but that attempt probably failed since they all are normally away from each other. Also Itachi might be a bad match-up for Oro fighting wise so he left, he could have kept at it if he wants but since he has met Sasuke he saw that Sasuke has the potential to be better than his brother.

Refutation
1). Actually we haven't seen different degrees of demon sealings, Naruto's is a sealing and Gaara's is a binding. I think they might be two different things deffinitely two different procedures done to pull them off. There shouldn't be any fear of Itachi and the other members coming after him because like Itachi said they would have a tough time fighting against a senin even with two against one.

2). If the Mangekyou Sharingan was the achilles heel of the user why didn't Itachi use it on Naruto when he had the chance to insure that he wouldn't give them any trouble. Because all they need is Naruto's body with him still alive, his mental state is not important.
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Old 07-27-2005, 11:28 AM   #5
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very good point kidistight
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Old 07-27-2005, 02:49 PM   #6
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very good point kidistight
Thanks, which one.
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Old 07-27-2005, 05:05 PM   #7
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"Orochi=Eight Heads?"..... Or, we can go into my great big bag of japanese words (my head_ and learn that orochi means snake
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Old 07-27-2005, 05:40 PM   #8
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Old 07-27-2005, 06:26 PM   #9
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i think so.... anyway... kid u r very nice... i also can't put so much point on it.hehe
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Old 07-27-2005, 06:31 PM   #10
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yeah I know... it all might be true, but I dun think it is.
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Old 07-27-2005, 06:58 PM   #11
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yeah I know... it all might be true, but I dun think it is.
Isn't that why we are all watching to se just how everything is going to turn out.
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Old 07-28-2005, 03:36 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corbenk
"Orochi=Eight Heads?"..... Or, we can go into my great big bag of japanese words (my head_ and learn that orochi means snake
Orochi was the legendary eight headed snake in Japanese mythology. Other than that, i don't know much about Orochi.

Wow, you two Dark dante and Kidistight have made some very elaborate and excellent points. But i've got a few questions for you guys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kidistight
Because all they need is Naruto's body with him still alive, his mental state is not important.
But wasn't the Kyuubi inside his mind? Like within his subconcious? So using the Mangenkyou Sharingan would have probably destroyed the cage that the Kyuubi was put in along with Naruto's mind.


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Originally Posted by dark Dante
"The second one is when Orochimaru took a new body while waiting for Sasuke. Right before he took the body there was some sort of image of a snake around Orochimaru that appeared. This could simply be just showing he's a snake user but I don't think Kishimoto would draw it with the effect it has w/o some purpose. I think it's a hint that there's a Youma inside of him. This is all speculation though and I could be completely over analyzing it but it's just a theory after all."
But we also see Jiraya and Tsunade with their summon animals. But if there was a special pic of Orochimaru with a snake, perhaps. And yes, i understand that this is all a speculation, but a very good one.
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Old 07-28-2005, 02:38 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by DaRk_DaNTe


1) Oro's Eyes: Orochimaru has some of the freakiest eyes in the series, yet there's been no overt explanation for them. We know from the flashbacks that he's had these eyes at least since his childhood, if not his whole life. Sure there could be other explanations, or no explanation at all, given that we've seen other characters with funky eyes before (Kurenai). Still, his having a demon inside him would go a long way to explaining this, as well as giving some insight into why he turned out to be such a warped individual, a la Gaara.

2) Oro's Jutsus: Oro's extendible tounge and neck are among the few jutsus we've seen that apparently do not require hand seals to activate. Rember how easily he called upon these skills when his hands had been sealed by the 3rd. If these abilities were not jutsus, but were, in fact, the manifestion of demonic power, this again would provide a ready explanation.
It could easily be, and it probably is, caused by an advanced bloodline. From what we've seen from the Akatsuki, none of them are 'normal.' With the exception of Sasori, they all have bloodline limits (though Sasori's puppets seem to make up for that). That could also be the reason why he doesnt use hand seals. No bloodline limit that we've seen had to use hand seals to activate it. Sasuke doesnt need hand seals to turn on his sharingan, and Kimimaro doesn't to to use his bones.

Quote:
3) Oro's disinterest in Naruto: From the first that he meets Naruto, Orochimaru is instantly aware of who he is and what he has sealed inside him, yet he shows no interest at all beyond first sealing and later attempting to kill Naruto. This strikes me as odd behavior for someone as notably power-hungry as Orochimaru. If he was aware that Naruto had the Kyuubi sealed in him, and had him readily at hand, wouldn't the thought of attempting to harness that power at least occur to him? Not if he already possessed a youma of his own...
I'll go with Kidisights answer on this.

Quote:
4) Oro's departure from Akatsuki: We recently learned that apparetnly Orochimaru fled from Akatsuki shortly after learning of thier plans. This could be connected to my theorty in two possible ways; he was disinterested in further congress with his Akatsuki peers when he learned that thier ultimate goals had nothing to offer him that he did not already possess, or he fled because he feared they would discover his secret and take his youma for thier own purposes.
They already stated the reason why he left, he had his own plans and staying with Akatsuki presented problems for him. He wanted revenge on Konoha and couldnt destroy it if he was constantly doing missions.

Quote:
Refutation: Like any good academic, I will present the weaknesses in my own hypotheses as they occur to me.

Firstly, the biggest problem with this theory is that if Oro has this power at his disposal, why hasn't he used it? A number of reasons could explain this. We have seen that there are varying degrees of the completeness of the demon sealings, as it would appear that Gaara's Shukaku is considerably less restricted than Naruto's Kyuubi. Perhaps if Oro does have his own youma, its sealed in such a way that he is unable to access its full power. Also, it could be that Oro purposely refrains from its usage for fear of attracting further attention from Akatsuki.
Exactly, if Oro had this power he would have used it when he was fighting the Third. And since he's jumped from body to body already a few times, I doubt that the demon could follow him. It probably would have died with his original body when he left it.

Quote:
"The second one is when Orochimaru took a new body while waiting for Sasuke. Right before he took the body there was some sort of image of a snake around Orochimaru that appeared. This could simply be just showing he's a snake user but I don't think Kishimoto would draw it with the effect it has w/o some purpose. I think it's a hint that there's a Youma inside of him. This is all speculation though and I could be completely over analyzing it but it's just a theory after all."
The snake wasn't really there, he guy probably saw a snake when he felt Orochimaru's killer intent.
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Old 07-28-2005, 07:01 PM   #14
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Orochi was the legendary eight headed snake in Japanese mythology. Other than that, i don't know much about Orochi.
Wow, you two Dark dante and Kidistight have made some very elaborate and excellent points. But i've got a few questions for you guys. But wasn't the Kyuubi inside his mind? Like within his subconcious? So using the Mangenkyou Sharingan would have probably destroyed the cage that the Kyuubi was put in along with Naruto's mind. But we also see Jiraya and Tsunade with their summon animals. But if there was a special pic of Orochimaru with a snake, perhaps. And yes, i understand that this is all a speculation, but a very good one.
I don't think that it could be damaged so easily, because it is affecting Naruto's mind, the kyuubi is seperate from his mental state.
Quote:
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The snake wasn't really there, he guy probably saw a snake when he felt Orochimaru's killer intent.
Actually when they first mentioned Oro I believe the third was talking about him they showed an outline of Oro with a snake in the letter S behind him. If someone would like the episode number let me know I wll find it for you.
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Old 07-28-2005, 07:23 PM   #15
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Cool

It's a good theory and is well thought out, and could actually be possible. I don't want to refute any ideas if they're good, which this one is, because it could happen. Personally I'd just say wait and see everyone, because that usually makes plot twists all the better.
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