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 04-08-2011, 09:31 AM #16 manta No Leaf Clover     Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Tropic Age: 27 Posts: 407 Thanks: 1,013 Thanked 1,356 Times in 702 Posts Re: 48÷2(9+3) = ?? You first do 9+3=12 then multiply it by 2=24 then divide 48/24=[2]. Reading more into it, it should've been more like: 48(12) 2 __________________ Last edited by manta; 04-08-2011 at 09:39 AM.

 04-08-2011, 09:42 AM #17 Nerox Mah'alleinir     Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Golden Hall Posts: 743 Thanks: 2,252 Thanked 2,674 Times in 1,264 Posts Re: 48÷2(9+3) = ?? Really, a discussion with animefan again?
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04-08-2011, 09:45 AM   #18
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Re: 48÷2(9+3) = ??

Quote:
 Originally Posted by AniMeFaN actually thats not how math works, it would be (2/3)*4
That's because you are inclined for it to be (2/3)*4. The fact is, without the appropriate annotations, the equation that I presented is ambiguous, so (2/3)*4 and 2/(3*4) have the same weight in the validity of the answer.

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 you do what ever is in the parentheses and then add them both. nothing really to think about here.
I just presented a simple example. But if you don't trust me on this interchangeability, just look at wikipedia:

Quote:
 Mnemonics are often used to help students remember the rules, but the rules taught by the use of acronyms can be misleading. In the United States, the acronym PEMDAS or "Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally" is common. It stands for Parentheses, Exponents, Multiplication, Division, Addition, Subtraction. In other English speaking countries, Parentheses may be called Brackets, or symbols of inclusion and Exponentiation may be called either Indices, Powers or Orders, and since multiplication and division are of equal precedence, M and D are often interchanged, leading to such acronyms as BEDMAS, BIDMAS, BIMDAS, BODMAS, BOMDAS, BERDMAS, PERDMAS, and BPODMAS.
So doing the multiplication or the division first shouldn't be a problem, since they are of equal importance and everybody should come up with the same answer since they (should) follow the same rules. But 2 and 288 have the same validity as answers to your equation, which shouldn't happen if the equation wasn't faulty in the first place.

Quote:
 Really, a discussion with animefan again?
And about "intelligence", no less. It's a pattern!
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Last edited by Numinous; 04-08-2011 at 09:46 AM.

04-08-2011, 09:48 AM   #19
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Re: 48÷2(9+3) = ??

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Nerox Really, a discussion with animefan again?
Yep, really sounds like something he got from /b/

EDIT: Yep, he did.
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04-08-2011, 09:55 AM   #20
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Re: 48÷2(9+3) = ??

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Numinous That's because you are inclined for it to be (2/3)*4. The fact is, without the appropriate annotations, the equation that I presented is ambiguous, so (2/3)*4 and 2/(3*4) have the same weight in the validity of the answer. !
im not inclined to say its (2/3)*4, that is how you read the equation, multiplication and division are equal so you do the equation from left to right in a situation with both. its order of operations.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Numinous But 2 and 288 have the same validity as answers to your equation, which shouldn't happen if the equation wasn't faulty in the first place.!
how is the equation faulty, its an equation. there has to be a definitive school of thought and consensus on this but the equation isnt faulty. most people actuayll accept the answer as 2.

"The general consensus among math people is that "multiplication by juxtaposition" (that is, multiplying by just putting things next to each other, rather than using the "×" sign) indicates that the juxtaposed values must be multiplied together before processing other operations"

 04-08-2011, 10:06 AM #21 ACt Heart Wizard     Join Date: May 2009 Location: The Halls of Irreverence Posts: 3,237 Thanks: 5,289 Thanked 18,598 Times in 4,839 Posts Re: 48÷2(9+3) = ?? The way I was taught, when you use the division sign, it is the same as saying: 48/2(9+3) Everything after it is in the denominator. Therefore, the answer is: = 48/2*12 = 48/24 = 2 If you go after a different answer, you are relying on a different definition of that sign. But for me, because it resembles a fraction with a dot above and a dot below, it is the separating marker for the equation. __________________ I've become A simple souvenir of someone's kill And like the sea I'm constantly changing from calm to ill Madness fills my heart and soul as if the great divide could swallow me whole oh, how I'm breaking down
04-08-2011, 10:17 AM   #22
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Re: 48÷2(9+3) = ??

Quote:
 Originally Posted by AniMeFaN im not inclined to say its (2/3)*4, that is how you read the equation, multiplication and division are equal so you do the equation from left to right in a situation with both. its order of operations.
Except that's how YOU read the equation. For me, since both operations have the same weight, the lack of proper annotation makes both (2/3)*4 and 2/(3*4) have the same validity. There's a reason for brackets in math, and this is it: to indicate which is the pivotal operation.

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 how is the equation faulty, its an equation.
But it lacks proper annotation! Nobody is saying the equation is nonsensical, I'm only saying that it'll lead to ambiguity, which already has: you say 2, kluang says 288. And both of you solved the equation with equally valid processes. Now tell me how that happens if it isn't faulty?

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 there has to be a definitive school of thought and consensus on this
It's called using brackets. Give it a try sometime.

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 but the equation isnt faulty. most people actuayll accept the answer as 2.
So it was 500 in 1000, now is most people? Make up your mind, will you?

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 "The general consensus among math people is that "multiplication by juxtaposition" (that is, multiplying by just putting things next to each other, rather than using the "×" sign) indicates that the juxtaposed values must be multiplied together before processing other operations"
@ bolded: consensus=/= rule. I know of people that use juxtaposition for exponential. I don't do that, since most quimiobiophysic equations use the consensus you referenced, but since politeness is never enough, use "x" or "*" to indicate the multiplication.

But you said:
Quote:
 that is how you read the equation, multiplication and division are equal so you do the equation from left to right in a situation with both
So is 48/2=24=>24*(9+3)=>24*12=288

But, like ACt said, if you consider the ÷ as a separation of fraction, it's 48/(2*(9+3))=48/(2*12)=48/24=2

See? You just backed up both claims, which shouldn't happen in a proper equation.
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04-08-2011, 10:28 AM   #23
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Re: 48÷2(9+3) = ??

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Numinous Except that's how YOU read the equation. For me, since both operations have the same weight, the lack of proper annotation makes both (2/3)*4 and 2/(3*4) have the same validity. There's a reason for brackets in math, and this is it: to indicate which is the pivotal operation..
yes that is how I read it, which is the correct way. you do it from left to right with equal operations, that is the correct way whether YOU do it or not

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Numinous But it lacks proper annotation! Nobody is saying the equation is nonsensical, I'm only saying that it'll lead to ambiguity, which already has: you say 2, kluang says 288. And both of you solved the equation with equally valid processes. Now tell me how that happens if it isn't faulty? ..
that happens when not everyone go's along with the consensus and sovles it a differnet way, doesnt mean its faulty.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Numinous But, like ACt said, if you consider the ÷ as a separation of fraction, it's 48/(2*(9+3))=48/(2*12)=48/24=2 See? You just backed up both claims, which shouldn't happen in a proper equation.
well act is wrong because / doesnt meant seperation of a fraction, it means to divide. if the equation was written 48 / 2 x (9+3) he would still get 2 and it would be 288

04-08-2011, 10:53 AM   #24
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Re: 48÷2(9+3) = ??

Quote:
 Originally Posted by AniMeFaN yes that is how I read it, which is the correct way. you do it from left to right with equal operations, that is the correct way whether YOU do it or not
Except it can lead to false results depending on the how the problem is presented, because I guarantee you that there are pairs OF situations that can be written down with the same operations in the same sequence, but one operation will have priority in one situation compared to the other, which might have another operation with priority, therefore brackets are needed to indicate what is that pivotal operation.

Sue me if you think I'm obsessed with brackets, but I think they are essential for the understanding of equations that have operations with the same weight in the same "level" of the equation (I don't know the correct term in English, but when I mean "level", I mean how they are inside or outside certain brackets).

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 that happens when not everyone go's along with the consensus and solves it a different way, doesn't mean its faulty.
I just showed how I went along with an aspect of the consensus and got 288 and ACt went with another and got 2. They have the same validity because they were solved with the consensus. The problem is the equation's for not having enough annotation.

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 well act is wrong because / doesnt meant seperation of a fraction
Yes, it does. Numerator/denominator is the consensus for fractions, so he indeed went with the separation and got 2. It just happens to ALSO mean division in mathematics.

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 if the equation was written 48 / 2 x (9+3) he would still get 2 and it would be 288
You just proved how faulty this equation is: you even contradict yourself.

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 what symbol would you use for division? this /? doesnt change anything
So you say you think it's 2, say that ÷ is the same as /, but when someone (like ACt) uses it as fraction, you say the correct answer would be 288.

THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN WITH EQUATIONS THAT AREN'T FAULTY!
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 04-08-2011, 11:12 AM #25 AniMeFaN Chuunin   Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 717 Thanks: 103 Thanked 195 Times in 128 Posts Re: 48÷2(9+3) = ?? im not responding to your whole post because i jsut dont care enough to. order of operations says you go left to right with equal operations. you are wrong to look at it another way. i did not prove anything faulty. a division sign does not mean to set it up as a fraction. if it was 48 /( 2 x (9+3)) then you could set it up as the denominator but since its set up 48 / 2 x (9+3) its step 1. 48 / 2 x (12) step 2. 24 x (12) step 3. 288 Last edited by AniMeFaN; 04-08-2011 at 11:13 AM.
04-08-2011, 11:26 AM   #26
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Re: 48÷2(9+3) = ??

Quote:
 Originally Posted by AniMeFaN i did not prove anything faulty. a division sign does not mean to set it up as a fraction.
But it means it CAN be set up as a fraction, it just doesn't mean that's always the case.

Quote:
 if it was 48 /( 2 x (9+3)) then you could set it up as the denominator but since its set up 48 / 2 x (9+3) its step 1. 48 / 2 x (12) step 2. 24 x (12) step 3. 288
First, you didn't treat it as 48/2*(9+3), you treated it as (48/2)*(9+3). See how brackets make a difference? Second, you have no proof it isn't to be treated as a fraction, since THE ANNOTATION THAT WOULD CLARIFY IF IT'S A DIVISION OR A FRACTION IS ABSENT. Therefore it's faulty!

Will you stop treating faulty stuff as functional?

Edit: Oh, and you changed your mind about the result? Was it because you didn't think at first or the equation is ambiguous enough for you to change sides?
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04-08-2011, 11:35 AM   #27
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Re: 48÷2(9+3) = ??

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Numinous But it means it CAN be set up as a fraction, it just doesn't mean that's always the case.
it doesnt mean you can set it up as a fraction, if you arent dividing by the rest of the equation you cant take the whole thing and treat it as you are by setting it up as a fraction.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Numinous First, you didn't treat it as 48/2*(9+3), you treated it as (48/2)*(9+3). See how brackets make a difference? Second, you have no proof it isn't to be treated as a fraction, since THE ANNOTATION THAT WOULD CLARIFY IF IT'S A DIVISION OR A FRACTION IS ABSENT. Therefore it's faulty! .
what dont you understand about order of operations, 48/2*(9+3) is suppose to be treated as (48/2) x (9+3). that is the order of operations, you solve in the bracket, the you go from left to right.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Numinous Edit: Oh, and you changed your mind about the result? Was it because you didn't think at first or the equation is ambiguous enough for you to change sides?
i did not change my mind once.

04-08-2011, 11:49 AM   #28
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Re: 48÷2(9+3) = ??

Quote:
 Originally Posted by AniMeFaN it doesnt mean you can set it up as a fraction, if you arent dividing by the rest of the equation you cant take the whole thing and treat it as you are by setting it up as a fraction.
But the equation you showed doesn't reveal that because there's mathematical symbols missing for it to show exactly what you said.

Quote:
 what dont you understand about order of operations, 48/2*(9+3) is suppose to be treated as (48/2) x (9+3). that is the order of operations, you solve in the bracket, the you go from left to right.
But since it's valid to treat / or ÷ as an indicator of fraction, what ACt did is also valid in this equation, it just follows a different aspect of the mathematical consensus. I repeat, brackets exist for a reason, it's just not for making the equation look pretty.

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 i did not change my mind once.
O'rly?

Quote:
Quote:
 how is the equation faulty, its an equation. there has to be a definitive school of thought and consensus on this but the equation isnt faulty. most people actuayll accept the answer as 2.
Quote:
 well act is wrong because / doesnt meant seperation of a fraction, it means to divide. if the equation was written 48 / 2 x (9+3) he would still get 2 and it would be 288
And I rest my case here. I have better things to do than doing a math version of the IQ test explanation that you still don't get.
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04-08-2011, 11:58 AM   #29
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Re: 48÷2(9+3) = ??

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Numinous But the equation you showed doesn't reveal that because there's mathematical symbols missing for it to show exactly what you said. .
you have it backwards, what you are trying to do is missing symbols

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Numinous But since it's valid to treat / or ÷ as an indicator of fraction, what ACt did is also valid in this equation, it just follows a different aspect of the mathematical consensus. I repeat, brackets exist for a reason, it's just not for making the equation look pretty..
its no valid to unless its one term which its not

"i did not change my mind once. "

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Numinous O'rly?.

"how is the equation faulty, its an equation. there has to be a definitive school of thought and consensus on this but the equation isnt faulty. most people actuayll accept the answer as 2. "

"well act is wrong because / doesnt meant seperation of a fraction, it means to divide. if the equation was written 48 / 2 x (9+3) he would still get 2 and it would be 288 "

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Numinous And I rest my case here. I have better things to do than doing a math version of the IQ test explanation that you still don't get.

you dont rest any case you idiot, i already posted this about the juxtaposition, that equation doesnt have it so it would be 288. i have not changed one thing i have said the entire time

"The general consensus among math people is that "multiplication by juxtaposition" (that is, multiplying by just putting things next to each other, rather than using the "×" sign) indicates that the juxtaposed values must be multiplied together before processing other operations"

 04-08-2011, 12:04 PM #30 ACt Heart Wizard     Join Date: May 2009 Location: The Halls of Irreverence Posts: 3,237 Thanks: 5,289 Thanked 18,598 Times in 4,839 Posts Re: 48÷2(9+3) = ?? Seriously - are we still discussing after we all agreed it was a vague and poorly arranged math equation that intentionally leads to disagreement? Also, you completely misinterpreted my definition of "÷", half because you didn't read the word "denominator" and half because when I wrote out my answer, I didn't put in the proper brackets to be completely clear - which is the whole problem. When I say it separates out the left side into numerator and right side as denominator, I mean 48 is the numerator and 2(9+3) is the denominator or: 48 2(9+3) Or to be completely clear: 48/(2*(9+3)) Clear? I'm not wrong because it is how I interpret the question based on what I was taught - in like grade 4!. (I think it was also commonly taught in Canada that when given such equations, you would often progress from left to right on even order of operations, such as division and multiplying.) Quit not understanding whether intentional or not. __________________ I've become A simple souvenir of someone's kill And like the sea I'm constantly changing from calm to ill Madness fills my heart and soul as if the great divide could swallow me whole oh, how I'm breaking down
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